Discussion:Firefighter -- Meals while on 24 hr shift

I've looked thru regs for where to deduct as an above line on line 21. Can't seem to locate it...cn you point me to that. Thank you.

Rev. Rul. 56-49, 1956-1 C.B. 152

A fireman is not traveling away from home in the pursuit of his trade or business while performing services at his principal or regular post of duty, even though he works a 24-hour shift during which he must remain at the firehouse overnight and cannot leave his station for meals. The tax or business "home" of a fireman, as in the case of other taxpayers, is held to be his principal or regular post of duty. See Revenue Ruling 54-497, C. B. 1954-2, 75. Furthermore, a fireman who is assigned on different days to different locations within the same city or general area is not "away from home," because a taxpayer's principal or regular post of duty is not limited to a particular building or property, but includes the entire city or general locality in which he customarily carries on his trade or business. See the sixth paragraph in Revenue Ruling 55-109, C. B. 1955-1, 261. Thus, the expenses incurred by a fireman for meals consumed at a firehouse under the circumstances referred to herein are not deductible as traveling or business expenses, but represent nondeductible living expenses. See Jess H. Taylor et al. v. Commissioner, Tax Court Memorandum Opinion entered June 24, 1952.

In Sibla, the 9th Circuit ruled that a firefighter can only deduct the cost of meals if REQUIRED by their employer to participate in a meal plan. Every firefighter that I have had as a client admits that their plans are voluntary.

Do tax preparers get to deduct the cost of ordering pizza because they have to work through lunch and dinner and Easter?

This is such an easy thing for the IRS computers to audit, too. The tax return has their occupation and the 2106 has a field for Meals. However, I am pretty sure the IRS would catch hell if they started picking on firefighters.

And my personal favorite: "I work with a girl who has two kids just like me. She always gets back thousands of dollars. How come I never get that?"

- Rick

"Firefighters required by their employer to pay their share of a common meal fund, even if they did not eat the meal, cauld deduct the amount they paid. If, however, a firefighter's payments into a common meal fund is not a condition of employment, then the expenses is a personal expense."

Milt

Every once in a while, a tax preparer gets pushed a little too hard by their clients. This forum is a great place to let off some steam. I am sure you can relate.

BTW, my brother is a puking drunk addict with AIDS that likes to hang out in burning buildings. He would be extremely offended by your comments.

I'd be very surprised if the vast majority of the participants on this board don't appreciate the work that firemen and policemen do and the risks they take in doing their jobs. Some of us even discount our fees as a way of showing that appreciation.

However, we don't make the tax laws. Congress does. We don't enforce the tax laws. The IRS does. I can appreciate your frustration with the fact that some suit can write off his $70 steak, but your husband can't write off the cost of the lunch he wasn't able to eat because he went on a call. Your complaints on this issue are directed to the wrong parties. No matter how much we may disagree with a law, we can't change it or disregard it while preparing someone's taxes.

My job is to assist my clients in preparing a tax return to pay the lowest legally required tax. When I sign that return, I am representing to the IRS that that return is prepared in accordance with all applicable laws. I for one, will not put myself (and the living I make which supports my family) at risk for a client to take a deduction if I know they are not entitled to it.

I see that you are passionate about this issue, and rightly so. Your only avenue of redress though is through getting the laws changed. Write your representative and your senators. Have your husbands union pursue this on behalf of their members. I wish you luck.

All that said, WE DON'T WRITE THE TAX CODE!! It is our job to prepare taxes according to the law. If you don't like the tax code, write your congressman. As an aside, if there is anything IN WRITING saying that a meal fund is required (the union contract is a great place to put this), then it can be deducted.

"They've all found someone to write off meals, uniforms and cell phones...."

I feel that our fireman deserve more tax breaks than the average person because of the many dangerous situations they encounter daily. I wish I could deduct more expenses to assist them but the tax code is as it is and interpreting it can be very tough at time, ergo, we have this forum here. As GL stated, write your Representatives or Senators and have all the firemen & their families write in. Overwhelm them letters.....you could make a difference.

Dar

Kevin, that is too much, I needed a good laugh what a very interesting thread

In mentioning sec. 119. If the employer has a cafeteria on the premises and we are restricted to the premises for the duration of our shift does this meet the requirement in sec. 119. There are other groups of employess at our location that are allowed to leave for lunch and get 30 minutes of unpaid time for lunch.

I call it the "Audit me" form.

If your tax "people" don't know what it is, then they are not the right "people" for you. Get a professional preparer.

Form 8275-R

Form 8275-R Instructions

Sec. 119 is an exclusion of employer provided meals. I believe that an air traffic controller would probably satisfy the convenience of the employer test under Sec. 119; however, in the absence of some sort of payroll withholding or direct payment to your employer, I see no employer provided meals in your situation.

there was also US Supreme court's USA v Christey.

This all got started because of an article in a trade newsletter by a CPA in Ca. and IRS notice 2002-0020. The CPA claims the IRS notice legitimizes his claims. If you have the time or curiousity look at http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-wd/02-0020.pdf

When confronted with "my other guy let me take the deduction", tell your client flat out that the other guy was WRONG.

Inform your client that: "I do not work for the IRS or the State Department of Revenue. I work for you. It's my job to prepare your taxes accurately and legally...to take full advantage of the deductions and credits that you are legally entitled to take. Just because your former preparer allowed you deductions that you weren't entitled to or illegal doesn't make it right". Then go to explain why the other preparer was wrong and the jeopardy that the preparer had placed the client in by preparing the taxes in the matter that they did.

Worst case, the guy walks out now, or is a no show next year. At least, you did your part to narrow the tax gap...one meal at a time.

His quote in the article, "Recently, both Congress and President Clinton officially agreed to allow many controllers to take the same travel deductions as pilots," raise alot of eyebrows. He never come out and directly says controllers can deduct their meals at work but that is the theme of the article and the conclusion most arrive at.

Reluctantly, I have declined all invitations to take the deduction. Until I can find concrete proof anyway.

The Service’s position on the issue of deducting meals consumed on the employer’s premises was clearly stated in Revenue Ruling 56-49. That position is that no deduction should be allowed for the cost of meals unless they are consumed “away from home” (meaning tax home).

Even in the ultra liberal Ninth Circuit, the court has held that meal expenses (Sibla) are deductible under Sec. 162(a) if the employee is required as a condition of his employment to remain on the business premises and purchase a meal from his employer. I am not sure if you are required as a condition of your employment to purchase a meal from your employer.

I'm glad this came up. I am running into this again from police officers who are referred to me by a long time friend who is a major in the police department. He asked me about it a long time ago, gave him the answer and told his officers that it didn't apply to them and to follow the law since they are required to enforce the law.

The only time controllers can deduct meal expenses is while they are away from their tax home and then they can only deduct 50% of their meal expenses. Controllers would normally not be in a travel status while actually performing ATC duties.

I'm not looking to "scam" any system, but it IS being taught that it's a legal deduction. The fact that firefighters "sneak" into your offices looking for this is because that it's taught. If I hadn't found this thread, I would never have known otherwise. They leave and find someone who will prepare the deduction not because we're looking for a scam, it's because we believe it to be true. If one attorney wouldn't take your case, would you give up and pleed guilty? No, you'd go down the street to the next guy. The same thing is happening here. I personally don't want a hand out, but a little respect would be nice. You know sales people write off every meal they eat no matter where they eat it. Landlords write off crap they buy for their own homes and nobody raises an eyebrow, but a firefighter...who is stuck in a station for 24 hours seeks a deduction for meals "while working" it's another story. Maybe you're professional organizations could put out some info to the IAFF and the fire academies out there.

Up above I read Riley, "Atcdav, you are taking the advice out of context. In the case of firefighters, the deduction is allowed only because the firefighter is required as a condition of his employment to make a periodic payment to his employer, and he is required to make this payment regardless of whether he eats the meals or not. Don't take my word for this -- read the Supreme Court's Sibla decision."

I strongly suggest that Firefigher1, you inform the instructors that gave you that (mis)information, to come to this sight, and this thread, where this issue is discussed, to see that the meal deduction is not etched in stone, and misinformation is being spread around. Having been a volunteer fireman for many years, I can understand your frustration, as most fireman are not experts in the tax law and follow the instructions they've been given in training. It might prompt a change in the literature given when it comes to occupational tax deductions.

Also, under the 119 regulations, if the employer regularly withholds the cost of the meals from the employee’s wages and the meals are provided on the premises of the employer for the convenience of the employer, the employee is entitled to claim an exclusion (not a deduction) for the amount withheld (assuming that the withholding is made without regard to whether the employee accepts the meal).

I've experienced your pain - my younger son is a member of FDNY and cannot believe I will not write off his meals (all the other guys do :)). As noted previously, the payment to a common meal fund must be a condition of employment.

The Court cases cited that ALLOW the meal deduction have special circumstances. Cooper 67 TC 870 and Sibla 68 TC 422 involved LA firefighters. The City required the common meal as a way of helping integrate the department. The City of New Orleans required a common meal and so Matta (TC Memo 1990-356) was allowed a deduction.

But many MORE case do NOT allow a deduction. I'll post a few so you can show your colleagues. Duggan 77 TC 911 - no deduction even though 24 hour shifts. Phillips TC Memo 1986-503 - no deduction even though UNION rules REQUIRED the common meal. Morton TC Memo 1986-132 - no deduction even though there was severe peer pressure to pay into the fund. Another recent case is Swaggler TC Summarry 2004-63 - again no deduction. There are more of these!!!

3000.00 state deduction for volunterr fireman based on certian criteria,training,attedance,call volume,work detail we can use phones if you get tex messages of the call if we have personal equipment that gets damaged on a scene,thats deductable,depending on cercomstances(hazmat) every tax joint in the state does the food allowance i wear eye glasses,you can write off a fitted mask specificly for glasses if you buy one

I have not read all the posts in this forum (there are just too many and I don't understand everything that's being said). I do my own taxes every year (I'm just an average American firefighter with no tax preperation expertise, hence the comment above). Can someone just give me a quick list of what can be deducted and what forms I need to fill out. I was under the impression that I could deduct my meals, but I see that has been shot down. What about union dues? And what about deducting the mileage I accure traveling to another station? Occasionally, my employer messes up the work schedule and when I show up at my normal assigned station I am transfered to another station for a day. What about classes I have taken related to work? I am not required to go to them by my employer technically, however I am in an indirect way. In order to keep my certificate current I have to attend so many classes outside of work. Can I deduct the travelling, meal, and cost of class expenses? Ok that wasn't short, my apologies, but the tax laws are often very confusing, esp for someone who does not deal with this stuff on a daily bases. Thanks in advance

John Huddleston Seattle Bellevue Tax Accountant

John Huddleston Seattle Bellevue Tax Accountant