Discussion:What do you do with this client?
From TaxAlmanac
Discussion Forum Index --> General Chat --> What do you do with this client?
| 14 June 2008 | |
| Ok....never learning but always trying....
Client is "needy" to say the very least. I know he is in massive amounts of trouble with many government entities, but he is as well wanting to "control the show". He is paying, but he wants a detailed list of every single item and a description of the outcome of those items. I will spend so much time billing that I won't get any work done. Then at least 3 telephone calls per day...last about 30 minutes each; he has had 2 meetings already at my office and is coming again in about 1/2 hour. Last night it was until about 8:00 p.m. and today well....the timer is going to be set!! But....he is paying hourly for consultation but feels I should not plug in for 10 minutes here, there, etc. Sure but if he is going to nickel and dime and want details then how else to do it? Fixing quickbooks he wants to WATCH!! I don't mind using VNC to work on his computer but he will be watching my every move. Client had the audacity to bring me a spreadsheet with my time "as he calculated it" from the time he gave me the retainer until now. Do I need this? Any one else have a client like this and if so...how do you handle it? | |
| June 14, 2008 | |
| Sandy, where do you get these people from? Actually, I had one client who wanted details of my time. I spent a lot of time meeting with her and showing her how to enter things in QBs. After our meetings I would do a follow up email to her summarizing what we discussed and other emails responding to other questions she had. She loved the service I provided. When it came time to pay the bill, however, she didn't want to pay for the time I spent doing the emails. I ended up getting 50%.
In my opinion, it's just not worth it trying to work with someone like that, especially if the person is going to tell you how much time you worked on the job. | |
| 15 June 2008 | |
| You can't beat the comfort of an engagement letter. Because you can't know from the outset how the engagement will go, you can put limits on client abuse by spelling out how you work & how much you will be paid. If it doesn't work out, change the engagement letter for the next client. Over time, you may have a lengthy and detailed letter, but you are far less likely to be stung. | |
| 15 June 2008 | |
| Hi Sandy,
I think 'Dear Abby' answered your question years ago. "You can only be abused by people if you let them" and, "are you better off with or without him?" You know what you need to do! | |
| 15 June 2008 | |
| Sounds like a manipulator and/or control freak (they're usually one in the same). Manipulators, particularly master manipulators, never make long term, loyal clients: there are simply too many suckers out there for them to pluck, and they will go hunt for a new sucker if they find someone they can't twist around their finger.
If he's in trouble with all these government entitites, this shows he does not like to follow the rules, why should he change for you? He won't. This is all the more reason to be well paid before he takes a walk. | |
| 15 June 2008 | |
| He has paid a retainer, but he wants "detailed hours/minutes" billed to show him.
I use my "timer" in quickbooks for my own billing, but I don't charge near what the timer shows...I write it down most often. Only way to show time and billing is hourly; tax returns are per return based usually; some I lose on, some I gain on and it is all subjective. Don't know what to do. Still in the "growing stage" of my business and word of mouth is incredible but just want to know....how do you show clients 1.23 hours at a rate of 50.00 an hour on each and every single item? I spend more time billing than I do working and that can't work | |
| June 15, 2008 | |
| Tell him that your every move is not going to be watched if he wants to keep you as his accountant. I can understand his concern about being over billed, but assure him that you keep track of everything.
If he doesn't like it, show him the way to the exit. Thank him for his business. Then go to the kitchen to make a stiff drink. Repeat as necessary. | |
| 15 June 2008 | |
| You never know ahead of time, but frequently it's better to quote a price for the project rather than an hourly rate. As you said, you're new in the business so it's probably difficult to get a handle on the number of hours that you anticipate expending. Clients are not particularly interested in the amount of time you take, they are interested in the number they will have to write on the check. When you introduce a formula, $/hour, they want input on the number of chargeable hours.
Value billing is the concept that works the best. Of course you can't always do it that way, but if you can figure out what it is worth to the client, and negotiate that price, you will take the time justification out of the formula. Most of us have tried both ways, and we've been stung both ways. Sometimes the project goes longer than anticipated, and if we don't have an out, we lose. I'd still rather work this way and analyze then refine the process each time. Billing time goes away. | |
| 16 June 2008 | |
| I agree with Marcilio. If a client asks me what my hourly rate is, I try to dodge the question. As soon as you quote an hourly rate, the first thing the client does is run a mental comparison with his/her own hourly rate and/or his previous accountant or attorney.
Value billing is always the approach I try to use. It works better on some jobs than others. I don't track hours. I never put myself in a position of having to "justify" my time or my charges. Client signs an engagement letter with an agreed upon fee and with their level of involvement clearly spelled out. Then I get a retainer. Engagement letter also states that if circumstances arise that result in additional work being necessary to complete the return/engagement, then additional fees will apply. One thing I've learned the hard way is that an overbearing client can wear me down to the point that I get resentful. It wastes time that could have been spent cultivating good clients. | |
| 16 June 2008 | |
| All good advice. And one thing you want to be when dealing with these clients is firm. They are paying you for value and your expertise. Let them know that they should look on this as more of a trusted advisor role and if they are worried about you nickel and diming them, then say thank you very much, hand them back their stuff and they may go. what is more likely to happen is that they will feel they offended you and will apologize and the nickel and diming they are doing to you will be done with. Also, indicate that you track your time by client and because they are calling repeatedly, it's a lot of little items and they get billed for it. this will encourage email questions and consolidation of question when he calls on phone. Also let him know that because he is requesting a detailed bill and accounting of your time, that you are charging for the time it takes to do that as well.
Give them the old plumber/car mechanic speach. that one gets em every time. If they don't like the bill afterwards, tell them to pay you what they think it's worth, and if it's less than what you billed, again, wish them well. Word of mouth is wonderful, but you must also not be afraid to stand up for yourself and to get paid what you think you are worth. If you do good work, your business will grow. | |
| 16 June 2008 | |
| After discovery stage, then value billing may work. Success billing NEVER with this one but certainly can re address the engagement when I have a basis for asking for xxx dollars for an engagement. Thank you for very valued advice!!! | |
| 10 July 2008 | |
| I wonder what would happen if you included a line:
15 minutes - preparing detailed hours/minutes billing $50 | |
| 10 July 2008 | |
| Have you guys ever seen a law firm bill like this?
11/09/2007 Phone Conversation with Mr. XXXXX. In regards of entity selection issues. 10:30 AM - 11:15 AM. 0.75 Prorate 300/hr : $225 Charge 11/10/2007 Consultation Meeting with Mr. XXXXX. Articles of Incorporation review and consultation. 1 PM - 3 PM. 2 Hours @ 300/hr: $600 Charge 11/11/2007 Email from and to Mr. XXXXX and changed clause 4.02B in client's privacy policy for Corp XXXX service TOS. 15 Minutes Prorate 0.25 @ 300/hr: $75 Charge | |
| July 15, 2008 | |
| I've seen lots of details on legal invoices but usually not the specific time of day. | |
RoyDaleOne (talk|edits) said: | 15 July 2008 |
| A long time age we used to bill for billing. | |
| 29 August 2008 | |
| We need a variety of documents, statements and supporting information to prepare tax returns and financial statements. Does anyone know of a generic checklist of requirement information that can be presented to clients to answer the questions, "what do you need to do my tax return (financial statements)?" | |
| 29 August 2008 | |
| Send them a tax organizer filled in with last years numbers in it. These can be easily prepared with some of the top tax software programs. Tell clients you need all of the new amounts for this year. | |
| 29 August 2008 | |
| Sandysea - It seems like charging this client for your time, rather than a flat rate, may serve you best. Once you quote a flat fee with this kind of individual, they're likely to really go crazy in their demands of you.
In the past, I've told clients like him that they really need to find an accountant they trust, & if it's not me, they need to go elsewhere. You'll be fine - stay firm and professional, keep ahead of the game in terms of retainers, charge for all of your time, & just assume he's gone. Then you can be pleasantly surprised if it works out OK. | |
| 29 August 2008 | |
| This client I got paid for in FULL. I "fired" him last week due to some issues that he is not forthcoming with. Is OK but I withheld my work product until the checks cleared.
Like I said, I am learning to be a business girl. Flat fees don't work especially when they encompass so much work. I "guesstimated" my time, but left room for increases. Thank you God I got paid what I billed. Now, if he will leave me alone I will be happy....I am a sucker when it comes to people who "need help"...hehehe | |
| 30 August 2008 | |
| Well done, Sandysea. I know what you mean about being a sucker for folks who "need help". But, I suspect that this attitude serves me well with the high functioning clients - they seem to sense my caring and become quite loyal. | |
| 30 August 2008 | |
| TY TY TY!!!
I have to give up the "save the world" mentality but very tough for me. Yes, this attitude serves you well as they KNOW that you care not only about their situation but them as well!! | |
