Discussion:Unpaid bill

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Jokadah (talk|edits) said:

22 May 2006
I have a client that I did a year's worth or accounting for on my Quickbooks program and filed an extension for his tax return. He was missing credit card statements which is why the extension was filed and not very cooperative. (This was a train wreck waiting to happen, should have listened to that inner voice). He has not paid me and decided to go someplace else. I gave him a copy of his extension. I just received letter from his new preparer requesting a backup copy of his Quickbooks. He has all of the bank statements and cancelled checks. Client never paid me for this, do I have to provide him with a copy?

TaxArt (talk|edits) said:

22 May 2006
I would say no based on this excerpt from Circular 230:

(See last paragraph)


(b) For purposes of this section--Records of the client include all documents or written or electronic materials provided to the practitioner, or obtained by the practitioner in the course of the practitioner’s representation of the client, that preexisted the retention of the practitioner by the client. The term also includes materials that were prepared by the client or a third party (not including an employee or agent of the practitioner) at any time and provided to the practitioner with respect to the subject matter of the representation. The term also includes any return, claim for refund, schedule, affidavit, appraisal or any other document prepared by the practitioner, or his or her employee or agent, that was presented to the client with respect to a prior representation if such document is necessary for the taxpayer to comply with his or her current Federal tax obligations. The term does not include any return, claim for refund, schedule, affidavit, appraisal or any other document prepared by the practitioner or the practitioner’s firm, employees or agents if the practitioner is withholding such document pending the client’s performance of its contractual obligation to pay fees with respect to such document.

JR1 (talk|edits) said:

22 May 2006
I don't care what the docs say. Hell, no.

TaxArt (talk|edits) said:

22 May 2006
Once you become a professional though, it is nice to say something besides hell no, in this case you can refer to Circular 230.

Sandysea (talk|edits) said:

22 May 2006
I wouldn't give them anything except what he brought to me....**puffing up my chest**, but I have done it before. I think if he wants what you prepared, then he needs to pay you for it. I have given in from time to time, but I am a sap sometimes.

A nice letter to the client and his new preparer can clear the way I think. Tell them like JR says "when hell freezes"...hehe

JR1 (talk|edits) said:

22 May 2006
In this case, professional means you're being paid! Since you're not, we can be more flexible!

JR1 (talk|edits) said:

22 May 2006
Maybe when the Chicago Cubs win a World Series.

Or Ted Kennedy goes into rehab. Or there's no fighting the Middle East.... When politicians lower taxes.

Warren (talk|edits) said:

22 May 2006
It's amazing the nerve some people have. It constantly amazes me.

Deback (talk|edits) said:

23 May 2006
You should provide him a copy of what he requested only after he pays you in full--with either cash, a money order, or a cashier's check. Otherwise, you shouldn't give him copies of anything.

TaxAssistCPA (talk|edits) said:

23 May 2006
Are you a CPA? If so, you may be interested in the following from the AICPA site. Seems clear as mud!

Records transfer: A former tax client of yours demands you provide copies of all his records to his new accountant. The former client has not yet paid you for preparing last year’s tax returns.

How would you respond to this request? Would your response be different if the engagement had been terminated before it was completed? How would state board of accountancy rules affect your response?

AICPA Professional Standards, ET section 501, says holding back client records after they’re requested is an act discreditable to the profession. In most states, holding such records hostage for fees would be considered a violation of state board of accountancy rules, subject to a citation, a fine—or worse. From a loss-prevention standpoint, it’s usually unwise to add fuel to the fire by not cooperating with former clients’ transition to another CPA.

Much of this issue’s risk exposure stems from confusion over what constitutes client records. According to ET section 501.01, client records are any accounting or other records belonging to the client and provided to the CPA by, or on behalf of, the client. If an engagement isn’t completed, the CPA is required to return all records provided, regardless of whether or not fees have been paid.

If the CPA completed the engagement, she should be ready to provide workpapers demonstrating information not otherwise reflected in the client’s books and records to assure the client’s financial information is complete. The CPA can require payment before releasing her work.

Note: Many state boards of accountancy have expanded the AICPA’s definition of client records to include workpapers such as adjusting journal entries, depreciation schedules and bank reconciliations, for example, that would not otherwise be available to the client. Under state board rules, the CPA must turn over all client records and cannot hold this information hostage for fees—even though the AICPA doesn’t designate these workpapers as client records. In such instances the state board rule supersedes the AICPA rules.

DZCPA (talk|edits) said:

23 May 2006
Does your hard drive ever fail??

LJACPA (talk|edits) said:

23 May 2006
TaxAssist, does this mean that the AICPA states that "The CPA can require payment before releasing her work.", but your state board (which state?), "the CPA...cannot hold this information hostage for fees" and that the state board rules? What a contradiction! I had a similar situation where I 'fired' a very unagreeable, rude, uncooperative client and then got a request from her for a QB back up. I hesitated, but did it and also included a bill for it. The bill, and I told her this, was not just for the info provided to the new accountant, but because I had always progress billed her, I included a fee for the work I had done and not yet billed for. We're talking about $130! She didn't pay, didn't pay, I rebilled. She sends me $65, what she thought was 'fair' and stated that she wouldn't report me to any agency. That's audacity, but that's her. I responded in a very professional way, explained in detail how I arrived at the very, very reasonable fee and basically told her to keep her money and I'd be happy to provide her with names and addresses of all professional organizations that I belong to. It truly does take all kinds!

Jokadah (talk|edits) said:

24 May 2006
I'm in CA and I'm not a CPA. I spoke with the new accountant and explained that I was not paid and would be more then happy to release the Quickbooks disk upon receipt of payment. He threatened me with legal action as he claims the Quickbooks are part of clients records even though they are not paid for. New accountant has the bank statements and cancelled checks, I kept none of client's paperwork. So since I don't have deep pockets or an attorney on retainer I will forward a copy of the Quickbooks and then turn the client over to collections or perhaps take him to small claims court. I think in the future I will ask for a deposit, enter & reconcile only months that are paid for. I did enjoy DZCPAs response about the hard drive - perhaps an archived - condensed version or an accountant's review copy or both (hehe). None of this seems fair and certainly leaves me a little jaded, but wiser. Thanks for all your responses.

Natalie (talk|edits) said:

May 24, 2006
You might want to re-think the small claims court option. Is it really worth your time? Do you have liability insurance? Would you be required to disclose the case to your carrier? Sometimes it's better to learn the lesson and move on.

Matt (talk|edits) said:

24 May 2006
Do you have a signed fee engagemenr letter. If you do, small claims court (depending on what state you are in) might not be a bad option -depending on your exposure (how much money is at stake). Here in Pa such cases, when documented with a signed fee letter (a contract!) are easy to prove and do not require the use of an attorney (although being one, I would suggest you at least consider it). In the absence of a contract, you will have a more difficult time, but not necessarliy impossible. If you are suing to recover fees I do not understand why liability insurance is an issue or why you would need to disclose the case to your carrier.

Acctax (talk|edits) said:

24 May 2006
I had a client that wanted to pay only for tax prep. and not the 12 mths of bookkeeping I'd completed in order to prepare return. I refused payment of tax return. A yr or so later I was contacted by local revenue officer. Explained situation with him and he stated that he only wanted the client's docs. He also stated that I was under no obligation to give bookkeeping or return to him since I still retained ownership because of non-payment of services. Once I received the subpoena I sent docs to officer. I would not give the new accountant the QB backup disk nor do I think he can take legal action against you and win. This would be a probably be a small claims court action and judges in those courts don't take kindly to somebody trying to "rip you off".

Warren (talk|edits) said:

24 May 2006
One thing to think about when you file a lawsuit for fees is that some professional liability insurance carriers will not cover you with regard to that client if the client counter sues you. CAMICO, which is a large California accountants professional liability insurance carrier will not cover you for that client if you sue for fees. It is a good incentive to not let my clients get too far behind paying their bill.

Natalie (talk|edits) said:

May 24, 2006
Matt, the reason I asked the questions above is because those were concerns that came up in a situation I am aware of. Client did not pay fees. Accountant went through usual collections procedures and finally threatened to take legal action. Client felt cornered, hired an attorney and counter-threatened breach of contract and other unfounded accusations. Accountant had to inform insurance company about the issue or risk cancellation of the policy in the event they ever found out about it. Fees involved were almost one month's billings, so it was significant. The effort and time involved in going to court, at least in this particular case, was not worth it. I think a valuable lesson was learned, however.

TaxAssistCPA (talk|edits) said:

25 May 2006
I didn't mean to be so wordy with my earlier response - I just wanted to indicate that it is not perfectly clear. Frankly, I would not give the QB backup until I was paid. I would give all source documents and perhaps JEs and bank rec's - let the new guy or gal enter all of the transactions! At some point your workproduct has to be compensated for. Maybe I'm wrong but giving the QB backup file leaves the new accountant unjustly enriched.

Sea-tax (talk|edits) said:

25 May 2006
I personally would write the client a letter and explain that here is your work and that in the mean time you will be giving him XXX number of days to clear up his bill with you. State that if the bill is not cleared up by such date that his account will be sent to collections and all legal options will be used to collect this money.

If he doesn't pay the collection compnay will harang him to pay and eventually if he doesn't they will file a lien and he can have fun trying to refi or sell his property. Eventually you will get paid.

In my state this is legal to send a client to collections, you may want to check your state however.

Sandysea (talk|edits) said:

25 May 2006
We can send clients to collection in Florida, but we cannot lien their personal or business property for the debt. It would be small claims court here.

WHIZZO (talk|edits) said:

25 May 2006
The accountant is using quick books. So he can just go delete any transactions he had to enter and give the file back in the condition he received it. That is a good point on putting the original file as received in another file name/directory.

Taxea (talk|edits) said:

27 May 2006
Just one more opinion...it is clear to me that the preparer cannot keep documents provided by the client and I always return everything I was given to the client with the return when my work is paid for. In this situation, I would exactly as sea-tax does.

When called by the new preparer I have, in the past, explained that everything I did was work product. In this case they were asking for the depreciation report. I simply explained that the client should provide the new preparer with prior year returns and with this the preparer should be able to recreate accurate depreciation records. I certainly am not going to give to the client or the new preparer any documents I prepared and do not charge the client for. I don't charge for worksheets...just the finished form they created. Worksheets necessary to prepare the return are work product in my office.

Cbrowncpa (talk|edits) said:

26 May 2007
Has anyone ever tried to use a letter like the one from AccountantsWorld for tax returns that were completed and delivered but not paid for? To summarize, it says: "We, the preparer, signed your return as 'Paid Preparer' and since we have not been paid, we will have to notify the IRS that the return is incorrect in regards to this statement." This looks like a powerful statement to send to a soon to be former client, but is it acceptable under 230?

Bottom Line (talk|edits) said:

26 May 2007
There are some other threads that talk about this. Do a search for Paid Preparer. I believe the consensus was that AICPA had a problem with it because it was not "professional" and that the IRS didn't care. It was a good scare tactic but had little backbone.

TxSrv (talk|edits) said:

26 May 2007
"We, the preparer, signed your return as 'Paid Preparer' and since we have not been paid, we will have to notify the IRS that the return is incorrect in regards to this statement."

Oh, my. If no Reg says such notification to IRS is required, as I'm sure the case, that's only just a lie. It assuredly is not a material falsity under criminal section 7206.

AKCCPA (talk|edits) said:

29 May 2007
Agreeing with Whizzo, you can always return a prior copy of the Quickbooks containing information for the years that the client has already paid for.

Cbrowncpa (talk|edits) said:

22 June 2007
I've had a few clients over the years want to pay after they've received their refund and I tend to let them, even though I shouldn't. A couple have seemed to think after means a month or more after, so I don't really want to do that anymore. But what happens if I tell them they can't have it until we get paid? If the client can't pay the bill when they come in to sign, is there any obligation other than to give them back their original documents?

JR1 (talk|edits) said:

June 22, 2007
Depends on your relationship. I've been pretty easy on that if they want to do it, but I've got a long term base of clients, so I know them. Usually. On the other hand, a couple recent ones still hang out there, collections are difficult right now. . .

TexCPA (talk|edits) said:

22 June 2007
Cbrown : I would tell the client prior to preparing the return and the engagement " As you know, I've always been reasonble in my collections, but going forward I will need you to pay for your tax return when you come into sign" , If they are good clients there should not be a problem

good Luck !

btw I agree with JR1

Cbrowncpa (talk|edits) said:

23 June 2007
Thanks guys. I meet with a billing company yesterday to set up automatic drafts for our regular monthly clients. They're also going to peparing a form for me so we can have clients that can't pay, authorize a bank draft for their fee scheduled for the day their refund is direct deposited. Not as good as getting paid up front, but better than waiting on a check.

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