Discussion:State U/C audit
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Discussion Forum Index --> Tax Questions --> State U/C audit
| 9 May 2008 | |
| Has anyone had State U/C department audit client for 1099 compliance? We have a dentist client who is squeeky clean on compliance. State (IL) wanted documentation regarding all payments to individuals. He had issued 28 1099s. They even wanted him to include cleaning people (who are self-employed) to be classified as employees. They said that they could impose $1,500 penalty for each violation.
Although he came out unscathed, this is an issue that isn't going to go away. With the new partnership between IRS & the states, we think the state will ramp up the number of auditors, and we expect every one of our business clients to be audited within the next 10 years on this issue. With the states hurting so bad for money, they see this a great way to get revenue. If you have clients who have "independent contractors", and who doesn't, you might want to fire off CYA memos on a regular basis. Comments, anyone? | |
| 9 May 2008 | |
| I have a client who is being having a state u/c audit right now. He said his job is to assume all independent contractors are employees unless it can be proven otherwise. He is running all the 1099s thru a program to see if they got 1099s from others. He also wanted to see invoices, business cards and certificates of insurance. I'll let you know how it comes out. | |
| 9 May 2008 | |
| I think this is going to be a big deal for most of our business clients. IRS News Release IR-2007-184 on 11/6/07 announced that IRS has entered into agreemens with workforce agencies of 29 states to share results of employment tax examinations. The exchange agreements are the first result of the Questionable Employment Tax Practice (QETP) initiative.
You are going to being hearing about this a lot more. Do I hear a summertime project warming up? | |
| 10 May 2008 | |
| If incorporated, I don't bother to issue 1099's but I have their info as well as their w/c exemption on file. For others, I issue 1099's....too bad, so sad if they don't give the corporate documents..... | |
| 10 May 2008 | |
| And, in many states, such as here in MD, the state definition of employee for purposes of U/C tax is significantly stricter than the federal definition, including there being no safe harbor. | |
| 11 May 2008 | |
| I fear that if we don't advise our clients and help get them into compliance soon, we can find ourselves facing these clients in court. | |
| May 11, 2008 | |
| Marcilio, this is obviously something you are very concerned about. What kind of memos are you suggesting that we send to our clients? I discuss contractor vs. employee issues with my clients at least annually. I provide them with the 20-factor brochure and we go over examples that might apply in their situations. I also point out how costly it can be to have to reclassify contractors as employees, whether that reclassification is coming from an audit or from the contractor him- or herself. | |
| 11 May 2008 | |
| I do that too, and I more or less had the attitude that if 1099s were filed, and reasonable guidelines were followed, the problems wouldn't any big deal. No more. I believe that the state agencies are going to be very zealous about enforcing this matter. The QETP initiative is in its infancy and we are already seeing aggressive audits on behalf of the state. We (the CPA firm I work with) plan to have a consultation with each of our clients and try to make sure that all the workers are correctly classified. If there is any chance that a 1099 worker can be classified as an employee, we will write a very strong memo to the client and urge the worker to be classified as an employee.
We feel that this is a major client/accountant relationship threat. If our clients do not conform, we will seriously consider disengaging them. We think it's that serious. | |
| May 12, 2008 | |
| Yikes. Has your firm spoken to your insurance company about this? What kind of risk do they foresee? | |
| 12 May 2008 | |
| I agree with Marcilio's thinking. Here in MD, you must pay U/C tax unless the worker is not under your direction; and has their own business; and either does not do the work at your worksite or does not do work in your usual business.
A travel agency almost lost on this issue, even though 1099s were issued and the workers absolutely qualified as independent contractors under federal rules. In the end, the travel agency prevailed by showing that the work was not done on their premises because the office where the workers were located had a separate entrance! I'm thinking that in these cases, we should inform the client of the disparity, plus advise that they consult with an employment attorney. Some clients may, in fact, opt to take their chances on the issue, which may be a reasonable business decision, but we want to make it perfectly clear that they are fully informed of the risk they are taking and won't blame us if they lose on the issue. | |
| 12 May 2008 | |
| Thanks, Smokey. Seems like your experience is similar to mine. Natalie, I don't know if we've talked to insurance company. I don't think this is a problem of negligence. I think it's one of reputation. None of us have anything to sell but our reputation. If we develop a reputation of working hard to help our clients thrive, we can only benefit. This situatioin is a challenge to that effort. | |
| May 12, 2008 | |
| Marcilio, IL has always been very aggressive on this, as most state depts of labor are. They don't work for the employer. They are the socialists in our own government. Indeed, IL mission statement on the plaque in the HQ says in short that the mission of IDES is to take the monies from the employers of IL and give it to the employees! Amazing. It's no different now than it has been, except for the random audits now the past couple years. It used to be that they only came on a complaint. And that was real ugly since you started under the presumption that you had been up to something in order to tick someone off. But having docs in order makes all the difference. Sadly, trying to talk with the auditors is usually pretty useless. The last one I had didn't speak much English and didn't listen at all. She sent a penalty notice for $10 to my client. | |
| 12 May 2008 | |
| The auditor my client is working with now said it didn't matter whether they sent out 1099s or not. They could still be reclassified as employees. The ones he is looking at are the sole proprietors. He is checking to see if the independent contractor worked for other companies as well as my client and will check their tax return to see if they claimed more in income than what showed on the 1099 from my client. He said if they only worked for my client they had a strong case that they are employees since the state u/c had a different definition as to what constitutes an employee than the fed does. | |
| May 12, 2008 | |
| And I thought Hawaii was pro-labor, JR. Thanks for the heads-up Marcilio. | |
TheTinCook (talk|edits) said: | 12 May 2008 |
| Karen-
There a couple of tests to determine employee status. First there is the 20 factor right of control test used by the IRS and most, if not all state tax authorities. Then there is the broader economic realities test used by the Fed DOL and by many states for labor law purposes. It is entirely possible to have a person be an IC for the feds, but an EE for certain state functions. | |
| May 12, 2008 | |
| So, assuming the state treats these people as employees and the fed as contractors, how is that handled from a withholding tax standpoint? Does the state expect to see a W2 at the end of the year? | |
| 12 May 2008 | |
| Natalie - It's simple - you include the employee on the state unemployment tax returns, but issue them a form 1099 and treat them as independent contractor for federal purposes. The state won't be expecting to see a form W2. | |
| May 12, 2008 | |
| Actually, Tin, the states almost all use the ABC test which is fundamentally different than the IRS tests, so you can get different answers. Like Nat, I've never included folks on the state unemployment reports that didn't get W2's. Too confusing, what does it do to the 940? And now, nothing ties to nothing anymore. I don't like it sam I am. But it is sorely tempting if you lose a state audit on someone who is clearly not an employee by any reasonable test. I've had communication with a state senator on this who is/was an accountant in practice. And he came back and said that it can't change, it's the unions that hold this so tightly. And it's what's held up the uniform, one stop reporting for payroll filings. The states and Fed won't agree. Can't I suppose, and since the legislation can't and won't either....our worst case scenario actually is that the IRS would abide by the ABC rules. Making everyone an employee of someone. | |
| May 12, 2008 | |
| Unions? Why do the unions have the pull here? Are these contractors then members of the unions? | |
TheTinCook (talk|edits) said: | 12 May 2008 |
| JR- isn't the ABC test used only for UI? Here in CA, I believe they use the right to control test for UI.
I can't answer for all states, but CA has provisions for submitting w-2 information when it differs from the IRS. | |
| May 13, 2008 | |
| All about six states follow the ABC rules. And that test is used to determine at the state level if someone is an employee or IC. It's skewed very tightly toward making everyone an employee. The way words are defined is plain crazy. Like services performed are a normal part of the business. What does that mean? Isn't bookkeeping a normal part of a business? And the Polish cleaning crew? Sure. So to the states, they can make all of 'em employees. And the unions like them because it makes more of their folk employees for the purpose of ripping those heavy dues and superheavy benefit funds. It's all about control. If electricians, plumbers, and carpenters, who all carry all their own tools and have been trained, and often come and go pretty freely...were allowed to be treated as IC's...that would further dilute the dying union pools....
Now, practically speaking, there is one thing that you can do to ensure that it's a rare problem: Do not have checks made or endorsed to an individual. That's how they perform the audit, by examining the checks and the endorsements. Rubber stamped company-made checks pass scrutiny. | |
| May 13, 2008 | |
| Nice suggestion on the payees, JR. I'm not sure how that would work in practice, however. I have clients who still write checks to me personally, even after repeated reminders to pay to the corp. Do dba names work just as effectively as corporate names? | |
| May 13, 2008 | |
| As far as I can tell...the biggie really is the rubber stamp endorsement. Yeah, I have clients that write my name on a check, too, but then it's stamped. So if everybody just used rubber stamps....oh, and frequency matters of course. If there's a string of a dozen checks, each weekly.....that's gonna be trouble. | |
| 13 May 2008 | |
| I just got that an email from my attorney who is the Chair of the Tax Practice and Procedure Committee of the Chicago Bar Association.
Congress is considering new legislation called the “Taxpayer Responsibility, Accountability, and Consistency Act of 2008,” which if enacted would revise the employee versus independent contractor classification rules. The proposed legislation would repeal §530 of the Code. Currently §530 protects an employer who incorrectly categorized a worker as an independent contractor from potentially large employment tax assessments if the employer meets all three of the following requirements: (1) reasonable basis, (2) substantive consistency, and (3) reporting consistency. An employer meets the “reasonable basis” requirement if there is judicial precedent, IRS ruling, past IRS audit, or industry practice supports the classification of a worker as an independent contractor. An employer meets the “substantive consistency” requirement if it consistently treated the worker in question as an independent contractor. The “reporting consistency” requirement is met if the employer never classified the worker as an employee on any federal tax return. The proposed legislation creates a new Code section, IRC §3511, which would make it more difficult for an employer to avoid employment tax liability if it misclassified a worker as an independent contractor. The proposed §3511 would redefine “reasonable basis” by requiring an employer to establish: (1) The employer classified the worker as an independent contractor based on: (i) a written determination that it received addressing the employment status of the worker in question or an individual holding a substantially similar position; or (ii) an employment tax examination of the worker or an individual holding a substantially similar position, that did not find that the worker should be treated as an employee; and (2) the employer never treated the worker or an individual holding a substantially similar position as an employee for employment tax purposes. The proposed law would also significantly increase information reporting penalties. Under current law, a taxpayer that does not file a correct information return may be subject to the following penalties: a $15 per return penalty if corrected within 30 days after the due date, up to a maximum total penalty of $75,000 a year ($25,000 for small businesses); a $30 per return penalty if corrected later than 30 days after the due date but before August 1, up to a maximum penalty of $150,000 a year ($50,000 for small businesses); and a $50 per return penalty if not corrected by August 1 (or if a return is not filed at all), up to a maximum penalty of $250,000 a year ($100,000 for small businesses). A “small business” is defined as a business with average annual gross receipts for the three most recent tax years of $5 million or less. Under the new law, a taxpayer that does not file a correct information return would be subject to the following penalties: a $50 per return penalty if corrected within 30 days after the due date, up to a maximum total penalty of $500,000 a year ($175,000 for small businesses); a $100 per return penalty if corrected later than 30 days after the due date but before August 1, up to a maximum penalty of $1,500,000 a year ($500,000 for small businesses); a $250 per return penalty if not corrected by August 1 (or if a return is not filed at all), up to a maximum penalty of $3,000,000 a year ($1,000,000 for small businesses). Please keep in mind that this is only a summary of pending legislation. If you would like more details about this, please do not hesitate to call our office. | |
| May 14, 2008 | |
| The proposed §3511 would redefine “reasonable basis” by requiring an employer to establish: (1) The employer classified the worker as an independent contractor based on: (i) a written determination that it received addressing the employment status of the worker in question or an individual holding a substantially similar position; or (ii) an employment tax examination of the worker or an individual holding a substantially similar position, that did not find that the worker should be treated as an employee
What does that mean? Is the IRS going to be issuing determinations for employers? | |
TheTinCook (talk|edits) said: | 14 May 2008 |
| The IRS already does that. What I do find interesting is that the proposed definition doesn't specify who makes the determination.
Just a minor nitpick with the attorney's email, but it's §530 of the Revenue Act of 1978, not the Internal Revenue Code. IRC §530 is for Coverdell Savings Accounts.
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| 14 May 2008 | |
| I think that you are going to find the states taking the lead in this. They have a big stake in collecting U/C taxes. Their penalties could wind up to be a lot greater than the fed. The QETP initiative already says that. The big employers are behind this because they want a level playing field with the small guys having similar costs. | |
| May 14, 2008 | |
| Big boys trying to level the field with the smaller guys? Is that really what happens on the Mainland? Out here it's just the opposite, at least for retailers -- the big box guys are putting many of the mom & pop stores out of business. | |
| 14 May 2008 | |
| That's the trend everywhere in retailing. For service businesses and especially construction, it's just the opposite. There are a lot of small companies who try to cut labor costs by putting the tax burden on their workers. As JR1 suggests in his post, labor unions are also likely to be behind this initiative. | |


