Discussion:Preparer Penalties
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Discussion Forum Index --> Tax Questions --> Preparer Penalties
| 28 May 2008 | |
| A client of mine got seriously audited based on filings going back to before I was involved. After the dust settled, an agent called me and told me of his intention to assess preparer penalties against me for, basically, assuming the prior return was competently prepared. The agent said I could, if I wanted, have the agent bring the situation to his superior before the assessment is finalized for review and I asked him nicely to do so. He said I would hear from his superior no later than Friday. It's been nearly four weeks. What do you think is happening? | |
| 28 May 2008 | |
| Very scary. Did the agent explain the ways in which he believed that your assumption that the prior return was ok caused the return that you prepared to have an understated tax liability? | |
| 28 May 2008 | |
| Refer to Circ 230, section 10.21 and 10.22:
§10.21 Knowledge of client's omission A practitioner who, having been retained by a client with respect to a matter administered by the Internal Revenue Service, knows that the client has not complied with the revenue laws of the United States or has made an error in or omission from any return, document, affidavit, or other paper which the client submitted or executed under the revenue laws of the United States, must advise the client promptly of the fact of such noncompliance, error, or omission. The practitioner must advise the client of the consequences as provided under the Code and regulations of such noncompliance, error, or omission. §10.22 Diligence as to accuracy (a) In general. A practitioner must exercise due diligence-- (1) In preparing or assisting in the preparation of, approving, and filing tax returns, documents, affidavits, and other papers relating to Internal Revenue Service matters; (2) In determining the correctness of oral or written representations made by the practitioner to the Department of the Treasury; and (3) In determining the correctness of oral or written representations made by the practitioner to clients with reference to any matter administered by the Internal Revenue Service. (b) Reliance on others. Except as provided in §§ 10.33 and 10.34, a practitioner will be presumed to have exercised due diligence for purposes of this section if the practitioner relies on the work product of another person and the practitioner used reasonable care in engaging, supervising, training, and evaluating the person, taking proper account of the nature of the relationship between the practitioner and the person. I don't think this standard requires that you either force a client to amend an erroneious return which you did not prepare nor that you dig deep enough into a prior year return to know whether or not it was in error. But, having said that, if you use information from a prior year return which you know to be incorrect in preparing a current year return, then you may have a problem.
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TheTinCook (talk|edits) said: | 28 May 2008 |
| Unless you fall under one of the criteria in 31 CFR §10.82(b), then you need to notified in writing why they intend to seek penalties against you and give you a chance to dispute it before the DOPR can start proceedings against you. | |
| May 28, 2008 | |
| Unless you knew it was in error, and that's provable somehow, and didn't advise the client...I think he's barking and can't bite. Not that he won't try. | |
| 28 May 2008 | |
| Read 10.21 carefully, note the scienter required "knows". That's a pretty high standard, so don't assume anything. You may want to speak with someone to objectively advise you throughout this process so you don't convict and then hang yourself without a trial!
For all practitioners here: on reading 10.21, don't you think we better put this advice: "The practitioner must advise the client of the consequences as provided under the Code and regulations of such noncompliance, error, or omission." in writing from now on????? A note in the file you advised them may not cut it. | |
Southparkcpa (talk|edits) said: | 29 May 2008 |
| Larousse
Please tell us the facts. I have read your bio and it appears that you ar somewhat new at this and is it possible that there was something that you should have known. We refer to it in business law as "the reasonable man" standard. I mean no disrespect, simply would like to help. I agree with JR, it takes a lot to get your ticket punched but this can be a bit over whelming. I recently had an auditor say something similar and I practiced a strong offense but felt I was right. | |
| 29 May 2008 | |
| CAUTION, don't say anything on this board that might incriminate yourself! | |
PHIL MOODY (talk|edits) said: | 29 May 2008 |
| There was a recent change (per our library service) that stated the IRS now mandates that all agents open two cases in each audit. One for the taxpayer, and one for the preparer. All questions the agent ask, may be used in either case. Some questions are specific to the methods of accounting and gathering the information, and what the taxpayer gave the preparer. It was noted that these were the basis for preparing a case against the preparer. | |
| 29 May 2008 | |
| More like the tay payor pointing the finger at the preparer saying "my accountant said that was ok..." | |
| 29 May 2008 | |
| Phil, I saw that also. The assumption seems to be that we are all "bad preparers". If the law re the new preparer penalties is changed back from more likely than not to reasonable basis, I wonder if the IRS will stand down. I think this new posture is really bad for tax administration. In all of the audits I've handled, I've never had a problem with the agent, and we've always parted ways cordially. This creates an unnecessarily extremely adversarial situation before the audit is even underway. | |
| 29 May 2008 | |
| In response to SouthparkCPA and JDuganCPA - you're right, I am relatively new at this. Client brought me the prior return showing a charitable contribution carryforward limited on the prior return to 50% of AGI. The contribution would have, according to the examiner, only qualified for 20% based on the facts which I did not know. I prepared a current year return using the carryforward again limiting to 50% of AGI. The following year, the client returned and the AGI was sufficient to use the remaining carry-forward but, according to the examiner, it had expired.
Do I read Tin Cook correctly in saying the first step is that I would receive written notice of the intent to assess penalties against me and until I've received that notice, nothing is going on? How long is the process going to take if I am going to hear from them again? | |
| May 29, 2008 | |
| And let the client go to the audit, leave us out and see how well that works. At least we won't say anything to incriminate ourselves. | |
| 29 May 2008 | |
| Larousse, if you were a Circular 230 practitioner, the answers to your last questions would all be in Circular 230 - make sure you are reading the most current one.
NOTE TO ALL: Because Larousse is NOT a Circular 230 practitioner, the rules may be slightly different - what the IRS can do is slightly different, and his appeal rights are slightly different. Best advice: get an experienced attorney (like Bob McKenzie or others with his level of knowledge) to represent you if the IRS proposes penalties. | |
| 29 May 2008 | |
| This is also a lesson in why 'limited practice' of non-Circular 230 individuals is not always in anyone's interest (the client or the unenrolled practitioner). | |
| 29 May 2008 | |
| I thought the latest rules said that anybody who "prepares" (and I did read how carefully the rules define that...) a tax return, enrolled, or certified or licensed in California, or not, comes under the rules. | |
| 29 May 2008 | |
| I was just presenting some tax issues 2 weeks ago at a conference where Bob McKenzie was also a speaker, and he stated that any time a preparer penalty is assessed now, the IRS is looking to sanction the tax preparer and the loss of a license is much more costly than a $1,000 fine. | |
PHIL MOODY (talk|edits) said: | 29 May 2008 |
| Kevin, does this not go further than loss of license?
I think they can prohibit the preparer from preparing any return, effectively putting the preparer out of business? Also, with the monetary penalities, I think this will probably be enough to put some out of business also. | |
| 29 May 2008 | |
| They can still assess penalties and yank my e-file registration. But I guess that would serve 'em right if I start filing paper returns again <grin>. | |
| 29 May 2008 | |
| yes, they certainly can go further than the loss of a license
I guess I was just thinking that if you didn't already have one (hadn't made the investment in time and effort) you wouldn't have as much to lose as someone whose livelihood and future was tied to his/her license. | |
| 29 May 2008 | |
| A person without a license can still have a mature practice, made a huge investment in time and effort to develop that practice, and his livelihood can still depend on that practice - even though he doesn't have a license. | |
Seaside CPA (talk|edits) said: | 29 May 2008 |
| Larousse, I'd take a good look at IRS Notice 2008-13 regarding preparer penalties. I think that it gives some information about relying on another preparer's work. | |
| 29 May 2008 | |
Seaside: Do you mean this:
"In addition, a tax return preparer may rely in good faith and without verification upon information furnished by another tax return preparer or other third party. Thus, a tax return preparer is not required to independently verify or review the items reported on tax returns, schedules or other third party documents to determine if the items meet the standard requiring a reasonable basis for a position. " Yes, that's why I thought the whole idea of assessing penalties on my preparation of the return for years following the original charitable contribution was out of line. I never did see the return with the original donation. | |
| 29 May 2008 | |
| So, to all of you who have contributed to this thread, I still wonder, based on your experience:
Four weeks after I was to receive a call by "Friday, for sure": what does that mean? When can I safely put this to bed? | |
Death&Taxes (talk|edits) said: | 29 May 2008 |
| It's like waiting for that second 'gotcha' in the old joke. You don't want to call them to ask, for fear you will awaken the 'dragon,' but how in the world can you work effectively knowing this is hanging? | |
| 29 May 2008 | |
| Oh, it's not too bad, D&T - like Mizz Scarlett said: "I don't want to think about that now, I'll think about that tomorrow." | |
Donniecastleman (talk|edits) said: | 29 May 2008 |
| I don't think you have anything to worry about personally, like the auditor has the time in his busy schedule to worry about preparer penalties, and if so, show due diligence defense and tell them to go jump in the lake. | |
| 29 May 2008 | |
| That's exactly right Pegoo, or more like "my new accountant said what I had been doing was ok." It's your word against the new client. If you find that you must advise per the last sentence of 10.21, it should be done in writing, to protect the preparer. Oral advisement when the consquences are high is not worth the paper it's written on. Same applies to a note to your file: worthless.
The sad thing is that this has an ironic effect. I would assume that in such a case, when a new client gets such a letter right off the bat, he will immediately go on the defensive and will actually be harder to educate and bring into compliance. But, 10.21 is what we got, and we got to deal with it as written. | |
| May 29, 2008 | |
| So Crow, are you recommending tax preparers get some kind of a representation letter from the client? I can see tax prep fees increasing substantially over this issue. | |
Southparkcpa (talk|edits) said: | 30 May 2008 |
| Larousse
If what you are saying is correct, and we all believe it is, I think you are OK, not perfect but OK. HOWEVER.... that said I once inherited a client with a contribution carry froward of 100K and I did inquire and learned that he sold a business and closed the sale in in 2003 where is income was seven figures, he donated in 2004 where he had very little AGI. I say this because there is merit to the point that when you do a tax return with a significant carry forward, I personally believe you should have inquired. That said, from an IRS stand point, I think you are fine as they can't point to any souce code or primary sources that what you did was wrong. You will most likely never hear from them but if you do, a strong response from you is probably appropriate. If it happens, send me a private note and I will draft a response for you free of charge. | |
| 30 May 2008 | |
| No, not in every case Natalie, of course other than your normal engagement letter. What I am saying if that if you "know" per 10.21, then you have a duty to fulfill what is stated in the last sentence of 10.21. I was suggesting that when the practitioner must so advise, it be done in writing.
Further, the IRS cannot take away a lawyer's license, or a CPA's license because they don't grant such licenses. They can ban and/or restrict practice before the Service (and no one wants that, of course). I suppose they could also refer to a state licensing body. But you would have due process rights before that body before your license was revoked. | |
| 30 May 2008 | |
| Southpark, that is most generous of you. I hope it doesn't come to that and I do have access to local counsel. Thank you. | |
| May 31, 2008 | |
| Well, I just realized I need to consider all of this for myself. I just started working with a client that has a significant NOL carryforward. | |


