Discussion:Meals/ per diem with a twist

From TaxAlmanac, A Free Online Resource for Tax Professionals
Note: You are using this website at your own risk, subject to our Disclaimer and Website Use and Contribution Terms.

From TaxAlmanac

Jump to: navigation, search

Discussion Forum Index --> Advanced Tax Questions --> Meals/ per diem with a twist
Discussion Forum Index --> Tax Questions --> Meals/ per diem with a twist

EZTAX (talk|edits) said:

17 August 2008
I have searched and read all the discussions on taking a per diem for a taxpayer working away from their metropolitan area overnight. Not sure if my clients situation is any different.

Client does pet/house sitting, often overnight. Some of these gigs are local and some are out of the metropolitan area (I like the 35 mile rule - thanks for that case Kevin).

For the local jobs, does the fact that the job requires that my client stay in their home for several day in a row have any relevance to the "outside the metropolitan area" requirement?

Thanks for your thoughts.

Solomon (talk|edits) said:

18 August 2008
May be under 274 as entertainment if the pet is eating out at McDonald's with you. image:smile.jpg. I really don't see how the local part could fit under Sec. 162(a)(2) since it is client's tax home. Nothing else comes immediately to mind.

Lhhesscpa (talk|edits) said:

18 August 2008
I believe a principal requirement for deducting meals incurred while traveling is away from the taxpayer's tax home overnight for business. If that's correct and the taxpayer's tax home is their own residence, I would think there's an argument to be made for deducting travel meals in the circumstance you describe. Sec. 162(a)(2) & Publication 463 p.3 -- Larry Hess, CPA | Albuquerque, NM

EZTAX (talk|edits) said:

18 August 2008
I guess I am getting confused about whether or not the rules regarding temporary job assignments overlap with the discussions we have had about the definition of a metropolitan area.

The language in pub 463 does seem to treat the rules relating to "traveling away from home" as different from rules regarding "temporary assignment or job". Under the temp job - "You may regularly work at your tax home and also work at antoher location. It may not be practical to return to your tax home from this other location at the end of each work day."

This seems to apply to my clients situation. Does the fact that the temporary job assignment that it is not practical to return from is in the same metro area matter?

RoyDaleOne (talk|edits) said:

18 August 2008
What makes this different from a fireman or highway patrol?

Taxcurmudgeon (talk|edits) said:

18 August 2008
The temporary assignment rule is one of the other requirements for the travel expense deduction. If the assignment is more than 1 year, travel expenses are not allowed. For travel meals: away from home and overnight and on temporary assignment. Isn't this person is self-employed? And is their business based at their own home?

Not practical to return home? The assignment itself is to be away from home. If they returned to their home they wouldn't be adhering to the requirements of the engagement.

RoyDaleOne (talk|edits) said:

18 August 2008
From Pub 436

" Generally, your tax home is your regular place of business or post of duty, regardless of where you maintain your family home. It includes the entire city or general area in which your business or work is located.

  If you have more than one regular place of business, your tax home is

your main place of business. See MAIN PLACE OF BUSINESS OR WORK, later.

  If you do not have a regular or a main place of business because of the

nature of your work, then your tax home may be the place where you regularly live. See NO MAIN PLACE OF BUSINESS OR WORK, later.

  If you do not have a regular place of business or post of duty and

there is no place where you regularly live, you are considered an itinerant (a transient) and your tax home is wherever you work. As an itinerant, you cannot claim a travel expense deduction because you are never considered to be traveling away from home.

MAIN PLACE OF BUSINESS OR WORK. If you have more than one place of work, consider the following when determining which one is your main place of business or work.

    * The total time you ordinarily spend in each place.

    * The level of your business activity in each place.

    * Whether your income from each place is significant or
    insignificant.

  EXAMPLE. You live in Cincinnati where you have a seasonal job for 8

months each year and earn $40,000. You work the other 4 months in Miami, also at a seasonal job, and earn $15,000. Cincinnati is your main place of work because you spend most of your time there and earn most of your income there.


NO MAIN PLACE OF BUSINESS OR WORK. You may have a tax home even if you do not have a regular or main place of work. Your tax home may be the home where you regularly live.

  FACTORS USED TO DETERMINE TAX HOME. If you do not have a regular or

main place of business or work, use the following three factors to determine where your tax home is.

    1. You perform part of your business in the area of your main home
    and use that home for lodging while doing business in the area.

    2. You have living expenses at your main home that you duplicate
    because your business requires you to be away from that home.

    3. You have not abandoned the area in which both your historical
    place of lodging and your claimed main home are located; you have a
    member or members of your family living at your main home; or you
    often use that home for lodging.

  If you satisfy all three factors, your tax home is the home where you

regularly live. If you satisfy only two factors, you may have a tax home depending on all the facts and circumstances. If you satisfy only one factor, you are an itinerant; your tax home is wherever you work and you cannot deduct travel expenses."

Death&Taxes (talk|edits) said:

18 August 2008
The obvious thought that strikes me, being a dog owner, is that if I had a house sitter for him, I think I would supply the meals. My first words would be something like: "This is Watson; his food is in the closet here, your food is in the fridge." In fact, on hiring your client I'd probably ask what food was preferred and I would stock it.

Taxcurmudgeon (talk|edits) said:

18 August 2008
Thanks for the quote, Roy. We can all read that in the Pub. What's your point regarding the facts & circumstances at hand?

RoyDaleOne (talk|edits) said:

18 August 2008
The point is that the taxpayer's tax home is the first question that needs to be answered.

EZTAX (talk|edits) said:

18 August 2008
Tax home is where she lives. She does other odd jobs in the area that are not overnight. Has an office in home. Clients do not provide meals.

Different from firemen in that these are temporary, short term clients, not continual work.

Lets try and create an easier example to address.

Client takes a 1 week house/pet sitting job, 5 miles from her home. She is required to stay at the home the entire time as part of the job requirement. She does other part time work year- round out of her home office.

Can she take a per-diem for food for the 7 days she is away from home?

EZTAX (talk|edits) said:

18 August 2008
Taxcurmudgeon - You are thinking along the same lines as I have been -

"Not practical to return home? The assignment itself is to be away from home. If they returned to their home they wouldn't be adhering to the requirements of the engagement." What is bothering me is that these jobs are in her immediate area.

As RoyDaleOne pointed out regaring being away from one's tax home from pub 436 - "It includes the entire city or general area in which your business or work is located."

RoyDaleOne (talk|edits) said:

18 August 2008
Of the three questions, I guess number 1 and 3 are yes.

"If you satisfy only two factors, you may have a tax home depending on all the facts and circumstances."

How is the duplicate expense is answered?

If, no then you have a difficult facts and circumstances test to past (what ever that is).

Death&Taxes (talk|edits) said:

18 August 2008
In the preliminary to deducting travel expenses, Publication 463 states:

"You are traveling away from home if:

Your duties require you to be away from the general area of your tax home (defined later) substantially longer than an ordinary day's work, and

You need to sleep or rest to meet the demands of your work while away from home."

Now perhaps your client needs to sleep at the pet's house, but is he away from the general area of the tax home when visiting local clients? The 'and' makes all the difference. I can't see that. In reality, is this not like the fireman?

The expense of driving, taking public transportation etc, to clients would depend on what constitutes his place of business. Many of us work from home and count the drive to the nearby client as a business trip.

There is a definitive difference once travel is outside the metropolitan area, as you noted above.

RoyDaleOne (talk|edits) said:

18 August 2008
The only difference I see between this and the fireman is the factor of the home office. I would guess that the home office would have to be the tax home to be away from to get some of the deductions.

For local transportation is not the test different?

Solomon (talk|edits) said:

18 August 2008
"For local transportation is not the test different?"

Rev. Rul. 99-7.

Chart.

EZTAX (talk|edits) said:

19 August 2008
That is what has been confusing me Solomon. But at least according to Pub 436 it would seem that for per diem, the work must be outside of ones "tax home" regardless if it is for a temporary job or a permanent one.

Solomon (talk|edits) said:

19 August 2008
That is my understanding EZTAX. That is, within the tax home then out of luck.

Death&Taxes (talk|edits) said:

19 August 2008
And that is what I was saying, if you are defining Tax Home as the general area. There might be a deductible drive to the location, since I would imagine these are all temporary jobs away from the place of business, but no overnight meals unless he leaves the metropolitan area [I suspect this is a 'she' too, since most dog sitters I've met are female].

EZTAX (talk|edits) said:

19 August 2008
Thanks everyone. I agree. No per-diem, yes transportation. Next problem.

To join in on this discussion, you must first log in.