Discussion:I yelled at a client....Now what?

Client came in for their appointment. Brought son's info with them. Since I have a minimum fee for work I actually do, Mother was very explicit that she wanted "somebody else" in my office to do the return, since it would be cheaper that way.

I assigned son's return to "somebody else" then subsequently fired "somebody else". Unfortunately, son's return got misplaced during this transition.

I found the return at 8:00AM on April 15th while going through the office to take inventory and do extensions. Mother calls me at 10:00 asking about son's return. I tell her I just found it, explain how it got misplaced, apologize profusely, and tell her I'm filing an extension because I don't do returns on the 15th, and I am busy filing extensions. Mother starts complaining about how she doesn't like extensions and what about penalties. I tell her I have no idea what the son owes, but I will cover all penalties and I'm not going to charge for the return to make up for my mistake. But Mother won't let up. She keeps pushing and poking until I snap. I push everything aside, tell my staff I'm not to be interrupted, and do son's return.

I call mother at noon. Tell her to come get a draft copy to review. And tell her I need an answer by 3:00 so we can transmit and process the return so son can make payment by 4:30, which is when the local post office closes.

Mother shows up at 4:00 and starts picking apart the return line by line. My staff is being very patient with her (I'm busy calculating extensions). At 4:15 she is still at it, and starts complaining about a $24 underpayment of estimated tax penalty.

At this point I lose it. Because the staff member whose time she is sucking is processing extensions with $244,000 of estimated payments going with them, and we have less than 15 minutes to hit the post office. I come out and say this.

"Why are you complaining about a $24 penalty? I've alrealy told you that I'm covering all penalties and I'm not charging your son for the return to make things right. Now, I've already said I'm sorry, given your son a free return, and am covering all penalties. What the heck else do you want? Because we have 100 extensions with payment that we need to get to the post office by 4:30 and it's now 4:17, and we don't have time to mess with your return any more. I pushed everything aside to do your son's return and make you happy, but you're still complaining. Make up your mind. Do you want to transmit the return or not? Because I haven't got time to mess with you right now?"

Mother starts to stutter and says "Well I dont' mean to be a bother"

I cut her off and say "Yes you do. If you want to beat on me about my mistake, do it after the 15th. I will sit and listen and take it all day. But right now, I don't have time to mess with you. Do you want to transmit the return or not?"

She says yes and leaves.

At this point I feel bad. I'm sending son his client folder with a note apologizing profusely for my error, and a bill for no charge. Is there anyting else I should do? Or what else should I do?

I had an uneventful 15th, because I e-filed all extensions on the 14th. We had already called everyone who hadn't returned to ask who needed an extension so I had my list.

Everyone who brought info in by 4/9 had a completed return done.

I don't understand the mad rush on the 15th. I've been in business 1 year less than you and never, never have been rushed on the 15th. We only had 3 clients pick up that day, as we pushed everyone else to pick up on the 13th and 14th, so that I'd have time to fix any oversights (which there always seems to be - this year I was supposed to know that the deposit slips meant that the hairdresser quit her W-2 job and opened her own salon and those were her income).

So really, you've got to look at your process and somehow take that stress off the last day and maybe spread it out over the week before.

If it isn't possible to work more the week before, then just start doing the extensions the week before. You've got an idea of who you won't be able to finish by then anyways, don't you? If not, you've got serious office management problems.

Sounds like she deserved it and she realized it. She backed down from what you infer. I also believe the father and son realize that as well. As a fellow Knight, we know what is really said about the wives at the Hall.

Seriously, I know you feel bad. As far as what you can do now, you have done all you can for now. See what happens. I know the wait is killing you, but the ball is their court (pardon the bad cliche). Now let them come back and see if all is forgiven.

Tom

From the real estate tax deduction on Schedule A, to ethanol and biodiesel credits, to everybody in my area jumping onto the ethanol/biodiesel bandwagon and having to wait on a K-1, to the Midwest disaster area relief provisions, to the Missouri health insurance deduction, none of our clients had everything they needed when they came to their appointment. Either that, or the forms were delayed for efile through the IRS.

I guess I'm not as fortunate as you to have perfectly trained clients who adhere to a schedule and bring everything with them to their appointment.

Someday I hope I'll be as good as Kevin.

Jdug is right. I'm too softhearted and hate to extend anybody. So I push as hard and far as I can before I call the season. If I had just had some balls and stuck to my guns, it probably could have all be avoided.

Please don't tell me that the son is 35 years old, but it would make sense if he is.

I also don't take potential new clients calls in the last few days, and the last two days were really slow, just waiting for the last piece of info for a couple of clients and I went shopping with son, went to the gym and relaxed.

It amazes me today how many 20 & 30 something guys are content to still swing off of momma's teat. When I graduated high school, I couldn't wait to get out on my own, make my own money, and call my own shots. (Even though making it on my own consisted of minimum wage, a '76 Camaro, and $200 of used furniture for $50/month apartment). I would eat dirt before I would ask my parents for money. Because I felt that it meant I was a failure. Today's kid's are content to sit on their butts and have no problem thumping their parents for cash to finance their recreation.

We had a client similar to that call on the 15th. Man comes in last summer with three years (05-07) of taxes to do, we prepare them and give him a call - no answer. He calls Wednesday morning wondering how is 2008 stuff is. You got my email of my 2008 stuff back in February right? Obviously not, and why do you call today, we haven't heard from you since July. Safe to say he's at the bottom of the list.

It was my screw up (I'm not as perfect as Kevin), but I challenge anybody to say they haven't messed up at least once in their practice, if they want to be honest. I have every return I have prepared in my practice in storage. And sometimes, when I refer back to them, I look at my work and think "what the hell was I thinking"?

That's why it's called the "practice" of accounting, tax preparation, medicine, or law. We never perfect it. We just get better at it with time and experience.

One of my quarterly business client's office manager called me on March 30th. One of the office employees "heard" that there are new payroll charts as of 4/1 for people who earn less than $ 75,000 - She needs to have what the changes were for each employee effected. I told her that I really need time to read the law that came out in February - see how it changes the withholding, and what other appropriate changes the employer needs to make. This was on a Tuesday - payday is Thursday. Knowing the employees involved, the change could not have been that material - for a $ 400 credit/employee - maybe $ 20/week adjustment. At that moment I was working on a slew of returns that were being held up for additional information (sound familiar?)-from brokerage firms, K-1s etc - more than any other year - dealing with thousands of dollars in refunds and additional taxes due. She called again on Thursday complaining she needs it immediately - can't wait until next week (after I'd have the weekend to dig into the file and give her the withholding changes on Monday - where any deficiencies in one week would be adjusted the second week. Well I just had to let her have it - AND - her son-in-law is a CPA where she knows the time pressures involved.

I called the Mother tonight and apologized for unloading on her and explained the situation. The lightbulb must have suddenly went on in her head, because she was nice as pie and said she completely understood my situation. All was forgiven.

Then I asked "Is there something I am doing that affects your trust in me? Because the last three years we have had issues with your return where you have questioned my preparation or judgement. What am I doing wrong that makes you uncomfortable with my work? What can I do better or different?"

She couldn't give me an answer.

At this point, my conscience is clear. Short of putting on sackcloth, covering myself in ashes, and publicly flogging myself, there is nothing else I can do to make things right.

This is her problem, not yours. I'm sure her husband and son realize that. You have no reason to feel bad. I say screw the flowers and any further apology she doesn't deserve it and she knows it.

I'm curious how your staff reacted. Perhaps they are due an apology.

Bravo! It might not have been the best way to do things, but sometimes it's the only way to get through a thick skull. What amazes me is how many nice guy clients we have that are married to such nightmares - glad to see we aren't the only ones (and I'm female, so I don't feel that's a sexist remark, but it happens that way 10 times as often as the reverse for us). I wish I had the nerve to do the same to a couple of them, but it is not my practice, so I have to wait until they leave to blow up! I have had one of them let loose on me though, and he came in the next day asking if he could claim temporary insanity - of course, he apologized to my brother, but never said a word to me (what a jerk).

We had a couple of last minute S Corp calls where each of them tried to put the blame on us for not getting back to them. This year, I'm out of town, so most of my communication has been via email, so luckily, I produced the most recent communication that showed that I was asking for info from all of them. Thank goodness for email trails! I'm going to try to keep better paper trails from now on for that very reason.

I would have apologized lightly. But I would also send her a letter telling her to get lost. It isn't worth it because she is going to be a perennial problem. It reminds me of he doofus husband who had a part time gig as an electrician (MAYBE $5,000 in revenue before expenses, yes, I said $5,000) and his wife wouldn't stop unless he had an S corp (yes, I said S corp). :D I was just about to yell at her when he beat me to the punch. I told them all the reasons they did NOT want an S corp and finally the husband yelled at his wife for me. I thanked them for thanking me for wasting my time and left.

I would be careful keeping them as a client. It is quite possible that no one has ever talked to her that way before and she might just show up in a lacy teddy next year for her 'appointment'. You may have just turned her on my friend! :D

Michael

Didn't it feel good? :D

Michael

Has Kevin been mean-spirited to you here?

Seems Luke the situation is resolved. Good for you. I had a terrible 15th. I missed filing my extensions (all no taxes due) which was my fault entirely. I did get my extensions for taxes owed out. At least there are no elections for the "no taxes due" clients, but it's still not a good thing. That's a first for me. I usually plan better, but in the end it's my fault. My assistant bailed on me for the 15th and she has always been reliable, so my 76 year-old dad came over to help and did what he could. Thanks, Dad.

Tom

You appear to be a sincere, competent and professional and owe no apology. My view is that you should send her the flowers with a termination notice or notice like I sent a client (see bleow). Below is an EXACT E mail I sent to a DR client who did not respond to sveral calls or E mails and I am VERY confident he owes money. He asked me via E mail on 4/15 at 2pm if I filed an extension and here was my response. Please note he is not responsive, takes money from his Corp via ATM withdrawals and calls the payroll compmay to cancel his payroll so he can take a big distribution without payroll taxes. He has simply become hard to tackle.

Dear Dr. "SMITH"

No, I did NOT file an extension for you and I will not.

Per your instructions we "turned off your payroll".

I am no longer willing to work with you under the current circumstances. Your lack of desire to pay proper attention or concern to your tax matters, books, cash flow etc... make it difficult to work with you.

As I see it, you have 2 choices.

1) Find a new CPA

2) Straighten out your act.

Either of those are fine with me.

I have not dealt with any doctors personally, but I understand they are PITB.

Michael

But take heart; everyone snaps at one time or another and the client will not remember it past next week. What makes people rude is self-centeredness. YOU aren't important enough to this client for her to bother remembering you.

Re: Kevin and EA vs.CPA...what you folks need to do is turn your pitchforks upon us lawyers. We're so used to the abuse that we won't notice.

I read stories and comments of stress and stress induced trauma during tax season. I am with Kevin on this one, we need to get over our desire to not file extensions and the stress of telling clients they will be extended. We all get the I don't like being extended remarks. Well, let them know that they can have their return done quick, or they can have it done right. I guarantee that 8 out of ten will agree and stay with you and they want us to be the parent types and tell them what they need to do even when they protest. They gladly <ok, they complain> pay our fees and even when they are charged more, they still pay because we are that good <for those of you that aren't, oh well> .

Tax season need not be stressful. Tax season need not be a 17 hour a day worklife. There are plenty of competent people out there willing to be trained and willing to help ease your workload. You will make more money off of other people's sweat than you can on your own. Pay for a great office manager that keeps clients off your back and pay for some part time preparers. You will be able to increase your workload and reduce your hours. As your staff get better, they can review the others work providing the secondary review.

Get over that anality of needing to do every little thing including the assembly. CPA stands for Cheapest People Around, but I think that moniker applies to tax preparers in general. My first boss would shoe us out the door at 7 during tax season. I looked at him in disbelief. Tired preparers make mistakes. Our clients don't pay us to be quick or to make mistakes. Go home, rest and come back tomorrow to do work.

If you are working 12 hour days, that should be more than enough, yes, there will be a few 14 hours in, but they should be few. If you have to work more, either hire staff or charge more so that you make the same and some leave. If they don't complain about the price, you aren't charging enough. 15 days prior to the deadline, take time and send out extensions for all that should need it. We send extensions out for EVERY business client so that we are covered. If we get them doen we do, if not, they get done later. For personals, the mre extensions you have, the more laid back work you have after April 15th. Take a week or two off, then start putting in those 4 hour days to get them done.

Really, people want perfection, not quickness. They may not like waiting, but they will appreciate the final product. And really, those that don't, do you really want them for clients <unless of course you are charging them PITA fees>

Do not be afraid for clients to leave. Others will take their place.

But, a couple of years ago I had an epiphany, when during the second week in April, my dear sister-in-law was smashed to smithereens in a car crash (she's fine now), plus the power and cable went out for two days. I could have easily been out of commission for an entire week right before April 15, which would have been a disaster, especially since it's just husband and I doing the work out of our house.

I had always gotten a lot of extensions, but those events spurred me to develop a formal business model, under which I essentially plan on extensions for everyone, with prioritizing getting returns out based on need - FAFSA, mortgage applications, large refunds, etc.

I'm very fortunate in having no shortage of clients who accept this methodology. There are so many advantages. I just got back from dropping off a return to a long time client/friend who I adore, and was able to shoot the breeze for an hour. No way I could have had this pleasure if she wasn't on extension.

I know this model is not for everyone, but does work for me.

But here's where I differ: I dedide to learn something from every mistake. I don't sit around beating myself up for it for days (hours, yes). So I was determined to figure out how NOT to make that type of mistake again. The answer: I'm going to charge the difficult returns an extra hour of prep time and then use it to do another thourough review of the return. It's not the easy returns that often get messed up, it's those difficult ones. And if the client doesn't want to pay an extra hour, they can go somewhere else because I know that even with an extra hour I've been way underpricing the difficult returns. Anways, that's my lesson for this tax season.

Now you do some introspection and determine how you could prevent your problem from happening again.

My client's don't bring everything with them to the initial interview. But that's what 'Missing Information' two-part forms are for. So the 1st of April my receptinist can go to the 'on hold' shelf and pull everyone's file and call them and read off the missing info.

And we don't lose returns anymore because I use a magnetic white board to track every step of every return.

I've gone to my share of practice management sessions (no they don't qualify for CPE, so those of you too cheap to spend money on anything not required I do undersatand that this doesn't appeal to you). You learn from your mistakes and you learn from the mistakes of others. But you don't make the same mistake twice.

That's what your office process and procedures are for. With 2 years of experience, you should be ahead of me on that topic. This was my 21st year on my own.

But note, this feature is only as good as those who carry it out and their determination to stick with it.

Michael

I have more than my share of stress also, but I just repeat the same mantra I've had for the last 21 years (out loud): All I can do is All I Can DO.

Surprisingly, I saw a book by that guy A.L. Williams titled 'All You Can Do is All You Can Do. But All You Can Do Is Enough' a few years ago and I just laughed.

I have heard of many professionals who set a cutoff date: "If all of your data isn't in by the 31st of March, we will automatically file an extension for you based on the available information." Seems like that would take a lot of stress off of April and put the responsibility back where it belongs: the client.

Earlier I discussed practice management sessions. I have already signed up for a shareshop sponsored by the North Carolina Society of Enrolled Agents to be held in July. It will cost me $200 for the session, plus 3 days (including travel time) and hotel for 3 nights. I guarantee that I will get more than $3,000 of ideas from this to improve my practice.

For about a dozen years, I attended the Large Tax Practice Group retreat of the National Association of Enrolled Agents (when I had my practice in Georgia of 1,200 returns). Every year I attended I came back with ideas to help me increase my income and improve the efficiency of my practice. I also got a lot of backbone by learning from others who were doing much more and earning much more than I.

If anyone has ever heard of the 'mastermind alliance' concept of Napoleon Hill, or the mentor concept, then you'd understand the value in getting together with others to share your successes, failures, and challenges.

So no, LukeCPA, if you're looking for someone to cry in his beer with you, you're right, it won't be me. But if you're looking for some solid advice in learning from your mistakes, believe me, I've made them and thus speak and write very strongly from experience.

The little feller came up with an ingenious system for my office.

First, the customer comes in and we strip them of their financial documents. Then the customer is hung upside down from a revolving electric clothes line.

Then stains are removed from his documents, and his cash is laundered. Then, we press the wrinkles out of any tax discrepancies, put a plastic bag over the final return, and place the whole thing in the hands of the client until he revolves around front, where an illegal Mexican removes him from the line, and places him in his automobile.

We take the liberty of extracting cash from the customer's wallet as he hangs upside down.

I paid a fortune for this, but I'm offering it to the board for free.

While this was my worst tax season in 25 years, Something positive did happen and right at the end. I will share it later as it does involve taxes. clients and good stuff.

Tom

Lukepccpa, I wholeheartedly agree with the others who've pointed out this lady is clearly used to pulling the Rottweiler bit with the little boys in her life. When you growled back unexpectedly, I guarantee you 2 things happened:

1) You scared the s**t out of her.

2) You gained her respect.

Bullies, of both the male and female persuasion (this is written by a woman), respond poorly to kindness, reason, and assertive boundary-setting. Bullies respond to fear.

Please don't feel bad. It's necessary to use a completely different set of rules when dealing with this personality type. Like it or not, you're now probably stuck with the dubious honor of first place on her short list of "People I Respect".

I say file this under "Continuing Education - Shrews, Management of" and celebrate the close of another good season!!

As far as yelling goes, it's not a professional thing to do. Understandable, yes, but I agree with Kevin that the best thing to do is implement procedures so there's less stress on the final day.

Now some of these people are gentlemen and tell me that they will understand if I have to file an extension, but the rest still believe in the age of miracles. My better idea is to slap a $50-100 extra charge on their fee for LMA [Last Minute Aggravation].

I also try to get relevant data on the software for every client if they have the information to me by the 10th....finish them? No, but at least I know where I am going.,

So the exception always proves the rule, and not the other way around.

There's been a many a time that I'm the only friend or family some old widder or miser had left toward the end. Of course, a lot of them will have a doctor friend they've known for years, but I can usually push them out of the way on the final lap. It's a lot easier to do today, since so many of the doctors can't speak English to begin with.

And there's a lot of satisfaction seeing a client go from a racing champion to a bottle of glue... guiding them past the rapids and the rocky shoals of the law, but I didn't set the rules of man's mortal existence; I have to live by them too.

Yes, I've pulled the plug on more than a few of them, legally of course, and got my reward; which makes up for a lot of the misery we go through watching over them all these years. So, I hope this gives all of you something to live for, just remember that life is a game of musical chairs; so make sure you get a seat before the music stops.

P.S. This comes from a speech I gave to my local Optimists Club back in October.

man have I been missing out.

Now I have had some October 15th PITA clients however.....

No, you misheard. It's a common error...Life is a caberNET.