Discussion:How-the-Rich-Cheat-On-Their-Taxes
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Discussion Forum Index --> Tax Questions --> How-the-Rich-Cheat-On-Their-Taxes
RoyDaleOne (talk|edits) said: | 23 October 2008 |
| http://finance.yahoo.com/taxes/article/106008/How-the-Rich-Cheat-On-Their-Taxes
FYI .... the comments in the article are bias (IMHO). I would like to see the underlining data. Is there anyway to obtain the data? | |
| 23 October 2008 | |
| I would like to change the attitude of society to where it is no longer acceptable to cheat. "Everyone else is doing it" and "Paying Taxes is for little people" attitudes don't help.
An interesting book (actually two): The Tipping Point, and Made To Stick. There are some interesting parallels with getting people to WANT to buckle seat belts and getting people to WANT to stop littering. | |
| October 23, 2008 | |
| When I saw those comments from IRS last week, I, too puzzled at where they get this crud. Cash businesses, of course, there's underreporting, but that much? In some industries, probably. But in this day of computers and inventory controls, it's nothing like it used to be. Furthermore, the higher income taxpayers in all likelihood have far LESS places to play than the mid guys. Imagine the owner of a $100 mil company earning a mil getting cash past the computer system. C'mon. A one mil company? Sure. The biggest thieves that I know of are the contractors and unemployment/workers comp cheats, and of course, restaurants and restaurant workers. Oh, laundromats and car washes.... | |
Southparkcpa (talk|edits) said: | 23 October 2008 |
| Kevin
I read the tipping point 2 years ago, perhaps I will try it again. I didn't see any relationship. I will read it once again. Matt | |
| 23 October 2008 | |
| Both good reads. I too enjoyed the discussion of how real Texans didn't litter. I agree it would be worth a shot to try to use some of those concepts to pursuade taxpayers to stop cheating.
As for who cheats the most...I don't really know. I saw just as many low income taxpayers wanting to take wrong deductions or not report income as the high-income taxpayers. However, the high-income taxpayers tended to be a bit more concerned about being caught. I think all of the low-income taxpayers that just plug in their W-2 into TurboTax, certainly skews the numbers in favor of low-income taxpayers cheating less. | |
| October 23, 2008 | |
| Drug dealers. The gangs, in general. Talk about money. When we start collecting tax on the crack pipeline that runs from Mexico to the Chicago area, we'll cover the Fed deficit. | |
| 23 October 2008 | |
| The limitation of this article is that it focuses on under-reporting of income, and ignores over-reporting of expenses. High-income taxpayers MAY be more likely to cheat by hiding income, but it does not make them more dishonest (as the article tries to imply). Lower income taxpayers just find other ways to cheat. A person's values or ability to rationalize cheating on a tax return is independent of income level, I would confidently hypothesize, and to try to prove otherwise would require more than a study like this one.
About the study, the article states: "The Slemrod/Johns analysis uses unpublished data from special research audits the IRS conducted on a sample of 45,000 individual returns filed for 2001." I have to wonder if the IRS had some criteria for choosing returns to perform "special research audits" other than the random sampling that would be required to draw conclusions about the entire population of taxpayers. Has this study been peer reviewed? Doesn't seem so. Data can be manipulated to show that the moon is square. Despite the alleged cheating of higher income taxpayers, they still bear by far the largest share of the Federal Income Tax burden according to the Treasury Department. Why does this fact not carry more weight? Fact Sheet: Who Pays The Most Individual Income Taxes? The individual income tax is highly progressive – a small group of higher-income taxpayers pay most of the individual income taxes each year. *
In 2001, the latest year of available data, the top 5 percent of taxpayers paid more than one-half (53.3 percent) of all individual income taxes, but reported roughly one-third (32.0 percent) of income.
* The top 1 percent of taxpayers paid 33.9 percent of all individual income taxes in 2001. This group of taxpayers has paid more than 30 percent of individual income taxes since 1995. Moreover, since 1990 this group’s tax share has grown faster than their income share.
* Taxpayers who rank in the top 50 percent of taxpayers by income pay virtually all individual income taxes. In all years since 1990, taxpayers in this group have paid over 90 percent of all individual income taxes. In 2000 and 2001, this group paid over 96 percent of the total.
* The President’s tax cuts have shifted a larger share of the individual income taxes paid to higher income taxpayers. In 2004, when most of the tax cut provisions are fully in effect (e.g., lower tax rates, the $1,000 child credit, marriage penalty relief), the projected tax share for lower-income taxpayers will fall, while the tax share for higher-income taxpayers will rise.
* The share of taxes paid by the bottom 50 percent of taxpayers will fall from 4.1 percent to 3.6 percent.
* The share of taxes paid by the top 1 percent of taxpayers will rise from 30.5 percent to 32.3 percent.
* The average tax rate for the bottom 50 percent of taxpayers falls by 16 percent as compared to a 12 percent decline for taxpayers in the top 1 percent.
Source: http://www.ustreas.gov/press/releases/js1287.htm One thing is clear: The lowest income group pays the highest dollar amount of cigarette tax, but there doesn't seem to be much concern about that. | |
RoyDaleOne (talk|edits) said: | 23 October 2008 |
| David, did you miss this statement from the article, "The "net misreporting rate" as the IRS calls it, includes both underreported income and inflated deductions.)"? | |
| 23 October 2008 | |
| Yes, Roy, thanks for pointing that out. I either missed it or forgot about it by the time I got to the end of the article.
I zeroed in more on this statement: "The main reason for the income-related cheating disparity: Higher income folks receive more of their income from sources that are easier to hide, including self-employment earnings; income from rents, partnerships and S corporations; and capital gains." | |
Death&Taxes (talk|edits) said: | 23 October 2008 |
| If I recall, these special research audits were the successor to the old TCMP audits of pre-Senator Roth days....that is, returns were chosen at sheer random and then supposedly every line item was examined. The idea was to build a new database to see which areas need more audit emphasis. IRS people can tell me if I am wrong, but the TCMP was instrumental in formulating the old concept of DIF scores. In those good old days I did three or four of these, including a legal partnership, a GP whose practice was inner city, and a marketing executive from IBM.
I suspect if you put a couple Son of Boss investors into the mix, the percentage among the higher incomes would go up more, but what does not compute is the fact that people with incomes in excess of 500K would generally employ professionals to do their taxes. As we know, IRS has never been able to come up with a method to track the K-1s, so the absence of a K-1 might never be found, but why would any professional nudge and wink their way around that. I would hate to think there are tax people out there who would countenance omitting income, or exaggerating deductions. | |
| October 23, 2008 | |
| No where in the article does it state the study was based on a statistically significant sample (or whatever the technical wording is). It does state, however, that it has not been officially endorsed or even released by the IRS. So, Roy, you may be correct.
And Kevin, I would add to that WANT to slow down (while driving). I'm sure there are many other things that could be added. | |
WD Kebschull (talk|edits) said: | 23 October 2008 |
| Professor Slemrod will be participating in Stanford Law & Policy Review symposium on Closing the Tax Gap to be held November 8 at Stanford. Damn, I would like to attend but it is 3000 miles away. I've got questions!! Here is the link for the info on the symposium.
http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog/2008/10/stanford-sympos.html | |
| 23 October 2008 | |
| Crud? Bias? Really?
I didn't know that sucking up to the rich was a part of the job description for a tax preparer. Can't the rich take care of themselves? It's not my job to apologize for them. Is there any room at the Inn for the poor people? You know, they are all drug dealers anyway. Oh, I know, we'll put them in the Stable. | |
| October 23, 2008 | |
| I'm not apologizing for the rich, Crow, if that's what you thought. Far from it. But I've found IRS is usually quite clueless about where the real under reporting of income is. Why? Because they don't ask those of us out here doing the work! Duh!!! Double duh! They think that what they learn on these audits is real. Seriously. Give me a break. Let's see, "Do you have cash stashed away somewhere?" "No." "No, ok. Then, have you received any cash that hasn't been reported?" "No." "No, ok, moving along then..." And that's considered intense questioning. A survey of a hundred practitioners done confidentially would give them so much material that they couldn't handle it, instead of making it up from perceived lapses found on audit. | |
| 24 October 2008 | |
| I dunno. There is something to said for the position that the people with 90% of the wealth should be paying 90% of the taxes rather than complaining about the 40% or so they pay under the current system. | |
| 24 October 2008 | |
| They are matching K-1s now. I've seen the CP2000s to prove it. | |
| October 24, 2008 | |
| Dennis? The top 5-10% actually pay nearly all the taxes now. I don't understand your comment. And welcome back by the way. You've been missed. | |
| 24 October 2008 | |
| (maybe they're paying only 40% because of all of the underreporting? hehehe) | |
| 24 October 2008 | |
| Here's some bias for you: 1065 audits: .56% Scd. C 5%
And, these are audits on the Scd. C's grossing 100K and less. If they can ever get the staff experience to audit these LLC's. Oh Lord. The professor will have stuff to write about the rest of his career. lol. If I'm wrong about the Scd. C rate, I'm sure someone will correct me, but it's a lot higher than the other entities. | |
| 24 October 2008 | |
| DZCPA may have the Sch C audit stats. Last time I looked they were only about 1.5% to 3% (about 3x the 1040 rate) | |
Death&Taxes (talk|edits) said: | 24 October 2008 |
| Crow, you do not want to see Sch C audits for under 100K gross; they are often handled in office by what used to be called Examiners, rather than Revenue Agents, the difference being that you could talk to a RA and explain the facts of life or the business they were auditing and they could understand why certain things were done that way.
Office Examiners, for the most part, come with pre-conceived notions and since they are sitting at their cozy desk, surrounded by photos of their loved ones, would rarely be able to put side their ideas. "You can't do that," was a common comment, and since the rep did not have access to code, regulations, rulings etc on hand, the answer had to wait until he returned to his office....not that the Examiner learned anything from it. | |
| 24 October 2008 | |
| Bias or not, you guys don't see the DIY returns that I do. 100K? Do you know how many returns have Sch C or E with zero as in big goose egg gross? These returns should be audited, and the taxpayers slapped upside the head. I saw one yesterday where the people should be wearing orange jumpsuits and really need to have the term 'fraud' explained to them in no uncertain terms.
As for the top 1% or 5% paying most of the taxes? Well they have most of the income too! | |


