Discussion:Firefighter -- Meals while on 24 hr shift

I've looked thru regs for where to deduct as an above line on line 21. Can't seem to locate it...cn you point me to that. Thank you.

Rev. Rul. 56-49, 1956-1 C.B. 152

A fireman is not traveling away from home in the pursuit of his trade or business while performing services at his principal or regular post of duty, even though he works a 24-hour shift during which he must remain at the firehouse overnight and cannot leave his station for meals. The tax or business "home" of a fireman, as in the case of other taxpayers, is held to be his principal or regular post of duty. See Revenue Ruling 54-497, C. B. 1954-2, 75. Furthermore, a fireman who is assigned on different days to different locations within the same city or general area is not "away from home," because a taxpayer's principal or regular post of duty is not limited to a particular building or property, but includes the entire city or general locality in which he customarily carries on his trade or business. See the sixth paragraph in Revenue Ruling 55-109, C. B. 1955-1, 261. Thus, the expenses incurred by a fireman for meals consumed at a firehouse under the circumstances referred to herein are not deductible as traveling or business expenses, but represent nondeductible living expenses. See Jess H. Taylor et al. v. Commissioner, Tax Court Memorandum Opinion entered June 24, 1952.

In Sibla, the 9th Circuit ruled that a firefighter can only deduct the cost of meals if REQUIRED by their employer to participate in a meal plan. Every firefighter that I have had as a client admits that their plans are voluntary.

Do tax preparers get to deduct the cost of ordering pizza because they have to work through lunch and dinner and Easter?

This is such an easy thing for the IRS computers to audit, too. The tax return has their occupation and the 2106 has a field for Meals. However, I am pretty sure the IRS would catch hell if they started picking on firefighters.

And my personal favorite: "I work with a girl who has two kids just like me. She always gets back thousands of dollars. How come I never get that?"

- Rick

"Firefighters required by their employer to pay their share of a common meal fund, even if they did not eat the meal, cauld deduct the amount they paid. If, however, a firefighter's payments into a common meal fund is not a condition of employment, then the expenses is a personal expense."

Milt

Every once in a while, a tax preparer gets pushed a little too hard by their clients. This forum is a great place to let off some steam. I am sure you can relate.

BTW, my brother is a puking drunk addict with AIDS that likes to hang out in burning buildings. He would be extremely offended by your comments.

I'd be very surprised if the vast majority of the participants on this board don't appreciate the work that firemen and policemen do and the risks they take in doing their jobs. Some of us even discount our fees as a way of showing that appreciation.

However, we don't make the tax laws. Congress does. We don't enforce the tax laws. The IRS does. I can appreciate your frustration with the fact that some suit can write off his $70 steak, but your husband can't write off the cost of the lunch he wasn't able to eat because he went on a call. Your complaints on this issue are directed to the wrong parties. No matter how much we may disagree with a law, we can't change it or disregard it while preparing someone's taxes.

My job is to assist my clients in preparing a tax return to pay the lowest legally required tax. When I sign that return, I am representing to the IRS that that return is prepared in accordance with all applicable laws. I for one, will not put myself (and the living I make which supports my family) at risk for a client to take a deduction if I know they are not entitled to it.

I see that you are passionate about this issue, and rightly so. Your only avenue of redress though is through getting the laws changed. Write your representative and your senators. Have your husbands union pursue this on behalf of their members. I wish you luck.

All that said, WE DON'T WRITE THE TAX CODE!! It is our job to prepare taxes according to the law. If you don't like the tax code, write your congressman. As an aside, if there is anything IN WRITING saying that a meal fund is required (the union contract is a great place to put this), then it can be deducted.

"They've all found someone to write off meals, uniforms and cell phones...."

I feel that our fireman deserve more tax breaks than the average person because of the many dangerous situations they encounter daily. I wish I could deduct more expenses to assist them but the tax code is as it is and interpreting it can be very tough at time, ergo, we have this forum here. As GL stated, write your Representatives or Senators and have all the firemen & their families write in. Overwhelm them letters.....you could make a difference.

Dar

Kevin, that is too much, I needed a good laugh what a very interesting thread

In mentioning sec. 119. If the employer has a cafeteria on the premises and we are restricted to the premises for the duration of our shift does this meet the requirement in sec. 119. There are other groups of employess at our location that are allowed to leave for lunch and get 30 minutes of unpaid time for lunch.

I call it the "Audit me" form.

If your tax "people" don't know what it is, then they are not the right "people" for you. Get a professional preparer.

Form 8275-R

Form 8275-R Instructions

Sec. 119 is an exclusion of employer provided meals. I believe that an air traffic controller would probably satisfy the convenience of the employer test under Sec. 119; however, in the absence of some sort of payroll withholding or direct payment to your employer, I see no employer provided meals in your situation.

there was also US Supreme court's USA v Christey.

This all got started because of an article in a trade newsletter by a CPA in Ca. and IRS notice 2002-0020. The CPA claims the IRS notice legitimizes his claims. If you have the time or curiousity look at http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-wd/02-0020.pdf

When confronted with "my other guy let me take the deduction", tell your client flat out that the other guy was WRONG.

Inform your client that: "I do not work for the IRS or the State Department of Revenue. I work for you. It's my job to prepare your taxes accurately and legally...to take full advantage of the deductions and credits that you are legally entitled to take. Just because your former preparer allowed you deductions that you weren't entitled to or illegal doesn't make it right". Then go to explain why the other preparer was wrong and the jeopardy that the preparer had placed the client in by preparing the taxes in the matter that they did.

Worst case, the guy walks out now, or is a no show next year. At least, you did your part to narrow the tax gap...one meal at a time.

His quote in the article, "Recently, both Congress and President Clinton officially agreed to allow many controllers to take the same travel deductions as pilots," raise alot of eyebrows. He never come out and directly says controllers can deduct their meals at work but that is the theme of the article and the conclusion most arrive at.

Reluctantly, I have declined all invitations to take the deduction. Until I can find concrete proof anyway.

The Service’s position on the issue of deducting meals consumed on the employer’s premises was clearly stated in Revenue Ruling 56-49. That position is that no deduction should be allowed for the cost of meals unless they are consumed “away from home” (meaning tax home).

Even in the ultra liberal Ninth Circuit, the court has held that meal expenses (Sibla) are deductible under Sec. 162(a) if the employee is required as a condition of his employment to remain on the business premises and purchase a meal from his employer. I am not sure if you are required as a condition of your employment to purchase a meal from your employer.

I'm glad this came up. I am running into this again from police officers who are referred to me by a long time friend who is a major in the police department. He asked me about it a long time ago, gave him the answer and told his officers that it didn't apply to them and to follow the law since they are required to enforce the law.

The only time controllers can deduct meal expenses is while they are away from their tax home and then they can only deduct 50% of their meal expenses. Controllers would normally not be in a travel status while actually performing ATC duties.

I'm not looking to "scam" any system, but it IS being taught that it's a legal deduction. The fact that firefighters "sneak" into your offices looking for this is because that it's taught. If I hadn't found this thread, I would never have known otherwise. They leave and find someone who will prepare the deduction not because we're looking for a scam, it's because we believe it to be true. If one attorney wouldn't take your case, would you give up and pleed guilty? No, you'd go down the street to the next guy. The same thing is happening here. I personally don't want a hand out, but a little respect would be nice. You know sales people write off every meal they eat no matter where they eat it. Landlords write off crap they buy for their own homes and nobody raises an eyebrow, but a firefighter...who is stuck in a station for 24 hours seeks a deduction for meals "while working" it's another story. Maybe you're professional organizations could put out some info to the IAFF and the fire academies out there.

Up above I read Riley, "Atcdav, you are taking the advice out of context. In the case of firefighters, the deduction is allowed only because the firefighter is required as a condition of his employment to make a periodic payment to his employer, and he is required to make this payment regardless of whether he eats the meals or not. Don't take my word for this -- read the Supreme Court's Sibla decision."

I strongly suggest that Firefigher1, you inform the instructors that gave you that (mis)information, to come to this sight, and this thread, where this issue is discussed, to see that the meal deduction is not etched in stone, and misinformation is being spread around. Having been a volunteer fireman for many years, I can understand your frustration, as most fireman are not experts in the tax law and follow the instructions they've been given in training. It might prompt a change in the literature given when it comes to occupational tax deductions.

Also, under the 119 regulations, if the employer regularly withholds the cost of the meals from the employee’s wages and the meals are provided on the premises of the employer for the convenience of the employer, the employee is entitled to claim an exclusion (not a deduction) for the amount withheld (assuming that the withholding is made without regard to whether the employee accepts the meal).

I've experienced your pain - my younger son is a member of FDNY and cannot believe I will not write off his meals (all the other guys do :)). As noted previously, the payment to a common meal fund must be a condition of employment.

The Court cases cited that ALLOW the meal deduction have special circumstances. Cooper 67 TC 870 and Sibla 68 TC 422 involved LA firefighters. The City required the common meal as a way of helping integrate the department. The City of New Orleans required a common meal and so Matta (TC Memo 1990-356) was allowed a deduction.

But many MORE case do NOT allow a deduction. I'll post a few so you can show your colleagues. Duggan 77 TC 911 - no deduction even though 24 hour shifts. Phillips TC Memo 1986-503 - no deduction even though UNION rules REQUIRED the common meal. Morton TC Memo 1986-132 - no deduction even though there was severe peer pressure to pay into the fund. Another recent case is Swaggler TC Summarry 2004-63 - again no deduction. There are more of these!!!

3000.00 state deduction for volunterr fireman based on certian criteria,training,attedance,call volume,work detail we can use phones if you get tex messages of the call if we have personal equipment that gets damaged on a scene,thats deductable,depending on cercomstances(hazmat) every tax joint in the state does the food allowance i wear eye glasses,you can write off a fitted mask specificly for glasses if you buy one

I have not read all the posts in this forum (there are just too many and I don't understand everything that's being said). I do my own taxes every year (I'm just an average American firefighter with no tax preperation expertise, hence the comment above). Can someone just give me a quick list of what can be deducted and what forms I need to fill out. I was under the impression that I could deduct my meals, but I see that has been shot down. What about union dues? And what about deducting the mileage I accure traveling to another station? Occasionally, my employer messes up the work schedule and when I show up at my normal assigned station I am transfered to another station for a day. What about classes I have taken related to work? I am not required to go to them by my employer technically, however I am in an indirect way. In order to keep my certificate current I have to attend so many classes outside of work. Can I deduct the travelling, meal, and cost of class expenses? Ok that wasn't short, my apologies, but the tax laws are often very confusing, esp for someone who does not deal with this stuff on a daily bases. Thanks in advance

John Huddleston Seattle Bellevue Tax Accountant

John Huddleston Seattle Bellevue Tax Accountant

He has been overly aggressive in his interpretations of tax law.

Lists all allowable deductions and states meals can be deducted if, "1. are required to make payments to a common mess fund as a condition of employment, and 2. must pay whether or not they are at the station house to eat the meals." As it is set up now, or house fund is absolutely deductable. Our daily "mess" as it looks now probably is not, but I would have to see what our procedures/operations/general orders etc. say about this issue. But, more importantly the mess is a comraderie issue and it is rare that anyone doesn't contribute whether we get to write it off or not.

A CONDITION of employment must be required by the EMPLOYER. The vast majority of firefighters are NOT subject to this condition. The scope of the Sibla case is VERY limited. That's why the guy says call for details!!!

The "compulsory house tax" or whatever else it is called is usually NOT a requirement of the municipality employer. What fireman write-off and what they are supposed to write-off may very well be different.  :)

I am in the insurance business and it drives ME nuts too when one of my clients says they switched because another agent told them something that wasn't right, or says they are paying more than their neighbor is paying for auto insurance so I must be over charging them when the FACTS are not the same. Oh, sorry, but I am getting off on a tangent. This is such an interesting website!

We can all argue what should be deductible, but keep the facts straight.

"FF/EMT's and Police Officers are allowed to deduct up to $12/day for meals. This is due to the fact that we are made to stay in service while eating. The other piece of that puzzle especially if you are a Police Officer or an EMT who works from a post is that since there is no kitchen you are further forced to purchase your meal. There is a max that is allowed though so ask your accountant. You are also allowed to decut any miles put on your vehicle commuting for OT, Details, or from post to post or station to station. You can NOT decuct your regular commuting miles, but for OT you can. You can also decuct miles if you are normally assigned to station A but are instead asked to go to station B today. In that scenario you can deduct the extra miles that it takes you to go from A to B. There is a tremendous amount of deductions open to us. I am a FF/EMT for a volunteer department, so i can write off any mile i drive within my home town as a charitable expense since I am on call and volunteering while i am in town. Shaving cream and razors can be deducted if you have a grooming standard. High Speed internet at my house, as well as my home phone as I would not have either but my employer requires a home phone, and the internet is used to check my work email as well as keep up to date on trends in the industry by use of websites such as this."

I agree with Kevin that MOST of it is a "crock" but some of the points about mileage are true. I applaud your efforts to set the "guys" straight but just want to point out the need to be careful in what you say.

For example:"You can also decuct(sic) miles if you are normally assigned to station A but are instead asked to go to station B today" That is TRUE. Rev Ruling 99-7 says if you have a regular work location(station A) and you must go to a temporary work location (station B), then you can deduct the transportation expense incurred in going from the taxpayer's home & station B regardless of the distance.

"A fireman who is assigned on different days to different locations within the same city or general area is not "away from home," because a taxpayer's principal or regular post of duty is not limited to a particular building or property, but includes the entire city or general locality in which he customarily carries on his trade or business. See the sixth paragraph in Revenue Ruling 55-109, C. B. 1955-1, 261."

Now you can all see the confusion. I guess none of you would support the flat tax, eh? Since it would put you all out of business.....

First, Rev Ruling 55-109 dealt with Armed Forces personnel, so don't be mislead that the paragraph that was posted is a DIRECT quote from that Ruling. Apparently, the poster used that Rev Ruling to make a conclusion about firefighters.

BUT, more important, the poster did not follow the trail after that Ruling was issued by the IRS. Revenue Rulings are often modified, amplified or obsoleted. I agree about possible confusion. :)

Having said that - Rev Ruling 55-109 was modified by Rev Ruling 90-23 which in turn was modified by Rev Ruling 99-7. Rev Ruling 99-7 is the seminal answer by the IRS. I'll paste holding 2 which I believe will establish the veracity of what I posted.

[start] (2) If a taxpayer has one or more regular work locations away from the taxpayer's residence, the taxpayer may deduct daily transportation expenses incurred in going between the taxpayer's residence and a temporary work location in the same trade or business, regardless of the distance. [end]

On another issue though....my employer does require me to have a land phone line in my residence (so they can call me in for "The Big One". It is right there in the contract. Can I deduct my phone line? Thanks in advance for the hearty discussion that will ensue!!!

"Now you can all see the confusion. I guess none of you would support the flat tax, eh? Since it would put you all out of business..... "

Freddy, let me first say you are way out of line here. What you have said is akin to me saying "I guess no firefighters would support house materials that would never catch fire, eh? Since it would put you all out of business.......

You can take whatever deductions you want. But be prepared to pay the penalties, interest, and/or do the jail time.

FMF, I would be happy to support a constitutional amendment to eliminate the income tax completely, knowing that I would have to find a new way to support my family and knowing also that it has a snowball's chance in hell of ever happening. Similarly, a) a flat tax will never happen and, b) if it happened by an act of Congress rather than by a constituional amendment, the next Congress would unflatten it. Look back to the Reagan tax act of 1982 (I think) when the tax rates were compressed down to two: 15% and 28%. I think that rate struture lasted two years before additional brackets came back to unflatten it.

But remember FMF, we tax guys don't write the tax laws, we only try to assist guys like you in figuring it out. And yes, we don't always agree on the answer because the answer always (or at least frequently) requires judgment. We won't all view the facts the same way and we won't all come to the same judgment. And none of us has perfect knowledge so sometimes we are wrong.

"Employees are required by the City as a condition of employment to contribute financially to meals in the Fire Station at a charge equal to the value of the meal, irrespective of whether the employee chooses to eat the meal. Employees shall be solely responsible for any financial or tax liability regarding this provision. Accordingly, the City shall be held harmless from any such liability. The City also shall not be responsible for maintaining any records or providing administration regarding this provision."

I read it as a tax write off meeting the condition of employment - but I may be wrong. Tell me, does this sound like I can write his meals off? (after july 1st, of course)

Any comments would be greatly appreciated! Thanks

This meal controversy smells of entitlement. I have worked plenty of hours - 16-18 hr days & received no meal "allowance". Whatever you choose to do, you take the good with the bad. And the rules are the same for all. Beanie - seems as if you could take the deduction (after 7/1) - it would help if they took the $$ for meals directly from his pay, maybe I missed this but do they?

They do not deduct directly from his pay, he has to pay for the food out of pocket - after taxes.

Califcpa - could you tell me where I can find sibla v. commr. I am new to this site and don't know where I can find specifics.

Dang tax law is extremely complicated!

And if you read this entire thread, carefully, you'll see that the conse