Discussion:Federal filing requirements for Series LLC

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Discussion Forum Index --> Advanced Tax Questions --> Federal filing requirements for Series LLC
Discussion Forum Index --> Tax Questions --> Federal filing requirements for Series LLC

Robert Rosulek (talk|edits) said:

16 June 2008
I have a client who has six LLC's. During 2007, in order to save the $250 annual filing fee with the state of Illinois for each LLC, he combined them into a "Series LLC." Now he has to pay only one fee, which is more than $250, but a lot less than $1,500. From my discussion with his attorney this morning, I gather that five of the LLC's were just allowed to dissolve as far as the state of Illinois is concerned, just by the action of not filing the "Annual Report." My question is this: Do I still file Federal 1065's for each of the six LLC's, or do I just file one 1065 covering all 6 entities? I filed extensions for all six on April 15, 2008. When I filed the 2006 1065's, I did not mark any of them as "Final" returns, as they hadn't been combined yet.

Thanks,

Bob

Marcilio (talk|edits) said:

16 June 2008
I believe that the operating agreement controls the reporting. I'll link you to the Ilinois law[1]

805 ILCS 180/37-40 Series of members, managers or limited liability company interests. (b)...A series with limited liability shall be treated as a separate entity to the extent set forth in the articles of organization. Each series with limited liability may, in its own name, contract, hold title to assets, grant security interests, sue and be sued and otherwise conduct business and exercise the powers of a limited liability company under this Act. The limited liability company and any of its series may elect to consolidate their operations as a single taxpayer to the extent permitted under applicable law, elect to work cooperatively, elect to contract jointly or elect to be treated as a single business for purposes of qualification to do business in this or any other state.

JR1 (talk|edits) said:

June 16, 2008
Bob, that's NOT my understanding. The attorney I've worked with is clear that these remain independent entities, with separate checkbook requirements, and filing requirements, but merely are allowed to save a ton of annual filing fees with the Secy of State. Maybe KatieJ would be worth hitting with a pm since she can access the state research, and seems to enjoy it.

JR1 (talk|edits) said:

June 16, 2008
Posted at the same time. So, do these become disregarded entities, all effectively owned/controlled by the Master LLC?

Marcilio (talk|edits) said:

16 June 2008
I don't know why link went to Article 5 instead of 37, but you can go to the top of the web page & click on act listing & then go to 37.

Marcilio (talk|edits) said:

16 June 2008
I don't have the answer to that yet. I suspect that they do, but I'll have to find out for my own benefit.

Marcilio (talk|edits) said:

16 June 2008
I just got off the phone with my attorney who has done several series LLCs, and he stated that most LLCs do a consolidated filing. He typically will only apply for one FEIN for the master LLC. He said that one of the main purposes for this procedure is to simplify administration of these entities.

If you would like more info, I'll link you to him. I'm still a newbie on this forum, so I don't know if it's ok to post info on him.

JR1 (talk|edits) said:

June 16, 2008
That makes sense M. You've got the legal separation, which does require separate checking accts, but disregarded entities for Fed filing.

Robert Rosulek (talk|edits) said:

18 June 2008
Four of the LLC's are owned 50-50 by the husband and wife. The other two are owned by the husband, wife and their three kids, with the ownership percentages differing in each. In any case, I can't go the disregarded entity route. I am leaning toward filing three of the identically owned LLC's as "Final" for 2007 and then combining all four into one for 2008. As far as the other two differently owned LLC's are concerned, I think I will file them separately and keep them going for federal reporting purposes.

Thank you both for your helpful comments.

Marcilio (talk|edits) said:

18 June 2008
Can you have a series without common ownership?

Robert Rosulek (talk|edits) said:

19 June 2008
I only hear about what's happened after it's happened, and my client's attorney apparently thinks it's okay to have a series that has disproportionate ownership of some of the underlying LLC's. From what I've read in a workbook from a course I took last year, he is correct.

JR1 (talk|edits) said:

June 19, 2008
I wonder where KatieJ is...maybe she's still trying to figure it out, too. Definitely would want to see a good research product's explanation on this.

Pegoo (talk|edits) said:

20 June 2008
I thought Series LLC is only for the state level where as the franchise tax/fees are lower vs having to file and pay for each LLC. I believe the taxation treatment of the entities is determined on the federal level instead of the state level. The membership structure for all the LLCs in the Series LLC would have to be identical to avoid having to file 1065s for each LLC.

Marcilio (talk|edits) said:

20 June 2008
I just did a comprehensive search on CCH & couldn't find anything meaningful. There was a long article written in 1999, but not much since then.

The substance of the article for this discussion is that there are no guidelines. My guess is that if you have common ownership of the LLCs, you are probably safe. If you have a mix of ownership, and if you consolidate the reporting, it's possible IRS could say that you failed to file a partnership return. The real answer is that nobody knows.

An additional article highlights that. The article is more than 1½ years old, and IRS is still thinking about it.

NEWS-FEDERAL, 2006TAXDAY, (Nov. 09, 2006), Item #M.2, Practitioner Touts Delaware Series LLCs

Howard Levine of Roberts & Holland LLP told practitioners at a November 8 D.C. Bar program that a Delaware series limited liability company (LLC) can be a "terrific vehicle" for owning multiple parcels of rental real estate, each series or entity having its own limited liability. This technique can be used to segregate assets into different entities. The result is similar to having a master limited partnership with partners who are single-member LLCs. Levine and program moderator Blake Rubin of Arnold & Porter LLP agreed that the two approaches are economically similar.

Levine submitted a ruling request to the IRS on a Delaware series LLC, suggesting that a series LLC could work like a master limited partnership and could specially allocate profits and losses. The IRS turned the ruling request into a project but has not made any progress on it, indicated James Quinn, IRS Senior Counsel (Passthroughs and Special Industries).

LH2004 (talk|edits) said:

June 20, 2008
It's hard to say anything definitive, but it would be a stretch to say that an LLC that just allocated profit and loss from different assets to different members was necessarily not a single partnership. The only thing special about a "series LLC" is the limited liability for each series. That may be the straw that breaks the camel's back, but it's a relatively small additional step, since it is easy to add limited liability in lots of other ways (by having separate LLC's that would be disregarded entities).

KatieJ (talk|edits) said:

20 June 2008
Here I am, guys <G>

The only state I know of that has ruled on this is California. California will treat the series as a single LLC, subject to one $800 minimum tax (and fee), UNLESS both of the following apply:

· The holders of the interest in each series are limited to the assets of that series on redemption, liquidation, or termination, and may share in the income only of that series, and

· Under state law, the payment of the expenses, charges, and obligations of the series is limited to the assets only of that series.

Most series LLCs would probably meet both of those conditions, and each series that is doing business in California would be required to file its own Form 568 and pay the minimum tax and fee. See FTB Publication 3556, rev. 3-2007, p. 8.

States that do not impose an entity-level tax on LLCs will probably allow a series LLC to file a single return. However, if you have some series in the group that are doing business in the state and some not, and the state does impose an entity-level tax, you're probably going to want to file returns only for the in-state series.

Pegoo (talk|edits) said:

20 June 2008
In regards of Robert's question whether he will have to file an 1065 for each LLC or a single 1065 for the whole Series. What are your insights in regards to the federal part? Series LLCs can have one filing for the state level. For the Federal level, each LLC would have to their own 1065 due to the membership structure not being identical for each LLC.

LH2004 (talk|edits) said:

June 20, 2008
It's not multiple LLC's in a single series, it's multiple series in a single LLC. Other than the limited liability piece, this is no different from a partnership issuing different classes of interests to different partners, and not far off from a corporation having two classes of stock. If there is really no sharing at all, it's a tough question. But I would feel quite confident taking the position that they are a single partnership if you have even a trivial amount of assets owned jointly by the different series.

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