Discussion:Cash Basis Taxpayer--profit sharing contribution...

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Discussion Forum Index --> Tax Questions --> Cash Basis Taxpayer--profit sharing contribution...

New Note Finder (talk|edits) said:

19 September 2007
I've searched the forums here, IRS, and another tax service and can't find an answer.

Here's the deal--if a cash basis taxpayer accrues profit sharing expense (but doesn't actually pay it until the following tax year) can it take it on the current year tax return. I did see a related thread regarding the accrual of payroll taxes that weren't paid the following year. On first glance I would say no--cash basis means you take the ded wonuction when it is actually paid--but I was wondering if profit sharing contributions were an exception.

New Note Finder (talk|edits) said:

19 September 2007
Upon thinking about this more, I would say this would have to be an exception--a taxpayer may not know its profit/loss until after year-end.

JR1 (talk|edits) said:

September 19, 2007
Well, based on what we've learned recently, since a PS contribution is elective, I would say that it's deducted when paid for cash basis. I don't like that answer, but that seems to be the law.

New Note Finder (talk|edits) said:

19 September 2007
Thanks JR1--I've spent hours looking for a definitive answer. I've had tax professionals and CPAs tell me yes and no. Do you happen to have a reg or something that relates to it being deducted when paid since it is elective?

JR1 (talk|edits) said:

September 19, 2007
Nope, just connecting dots from two previous posts in the last 2-3 weeks, starting with a Rev Ruling or Rev Proc back in the 70's that Riley dug up when we were wondering about cash basis and SEP's paid after year end. I finally agreed, to the point where I'm now notifying clients and taking action to ensure that we don't mess this up. Since a P-S plan works essentially like a SEP, in that you don't have to make the contributions, I'm just surmising that the answer's the same.

New Note Finder (talk|edits) said:

19 September 2007
Thanks JR1--I'll look at that thread. Sorry if I created duplicate topic threads--I did do a search for posting my question.

JR1 (talk|edits) said:

September 19, 2007
Hey, NNF! Check this out: (I change my mind!)

A deduction may be taken for contributions to a qualified plan only when contributions are actually paid. Payment for this purpose means the contributions must be delivered to the plan's funding medium (usually a trust). Accrual of a contribution obligation on the employer's books is not sufficient. The IRS has ruled that a deposit in escrow does not qualify. Actual payment is needed before the end of the taxable year for which the deduction is taken, unless payment is made during the grace period described below.

89 Rev. Rul. 55-310, 1955-1 C.B. 45.   
  

Both accrual method and cash method taxpayers have a grace period to make contributions for the taxable year. A payment is deemed made in the preceding taxable year if it is "on account of" such preceding year and it is made before the due date (including extensions) for filing the employer's federal income tax return for the year. Operationally, two requirements must be met for a payment to be treated as being on account of the preceding year:     

(1) the plan's terms must allow the payment to be treated as made for the preceding year; and    

(2) the employer either must designate the payment, in writing, to the plan administrator or trustee, as applying toward the previous year or must actually deduct the payment on its tax return for the previous year. Such a designation, once made, is irrevocable.

Bushmaster (talk|edits) said:

19 September 2007
The only things I typically accrue for a cash basis taxpayer are payroll taxes and state and federal income taxes. Recently learned this is acceptable for GAAP as well.

JR1 (talk|edits) said:

September 19, 2007
Well, did you read this above?

Bushmaster (talk|edits) said:

19 September 2007
Sure did. One more thing to add to the list. Pretty soon, I will be doing accrual basis tax returns for everyone!!!

New Note Finder (talk|edits) said:

19 September 2007
JR1, thanks for the reference. To me it would be impractical (ok, I know that practical isn't always the right answer) to require a company to know exactly what its profit/loss right at year-end.

JR1 (talk|edits) said:

September 19, 2007
Doesn't matter. The point is that once you do, you can clearly now go back and accrue for the contribution to be made. And it makes sense accounting-wise, since it relates to that year's income. What I don't know is if this applies to non-qualified plans, ie, seps, simples...

JR1 (talk|edits) said:

September 20, 2007
*bumping* Hoping to get some argument or discussion from Riley on this to be sure that what I see above is the final answer...

NYEA (talk|edits) said:

20 September 2007
I think the IRC agrees with your answer.

IRC 404(a)(6)

(6) Time when contributions deemed made. For purposes of paragraphs (1) , (2) , and (3) , a taxpayer shall be deemed to have made a payment on the last day of the preceding taxable year if the payment is on account of such taxable year and is made not later than the time prescribed by law for filing the return for such taxable year (including extensions thereof).

I believe paragraph (3) deals with profit-sharing plans.

JR1 (talk|edits) said:

September 20, 2007
Thanks NY, what is your impression of how this applies to SEP's and SIMPLE's?

WesR (talk|edits) said:

20 September 2007
Hi the answer is yes a cash basis taxpayer can accrue the prior year PSP, SEP and Simple thru the due date of the employers tax return including extensions. bye

JR1 (talk|edits) said:

September 20, 2007
Thanks, Wes.

Bbcpa (talk|edits) said:

12 May 2008
Must you make your profit sharing contribution before you can file your tax return?

DZCPA (talk|edits) said:

12 May 2008
No. Just by the due date of return or by the extended due date.

Marcilio (talk|edits) said:

13 May 2008
However, it's best to wait just to make sure it's actually paid.

DZCPA (talk|edits) said:

13 May 2008
Many clients file to get their increased refunds allowing them to make max contributions at a later time. If they later decide not to do so, taxes will be repaid with penalties. Their problem, not mine. I do agree the sooner the contribution are made, the sooner you have the ability to make a gain...or loss.

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